Talk:Gravitational manipulation

Ability Naming Conventions
The following sources are used for determining evolved human ability names, in order:
1. Canon Sources	Episodes
2. Near-canon Sources	Webisodes, Graphic Novels, iStories, Heroes Evolutions
3. Secondary Sources	Episode commentary, Interviews, Heroes: Survival
4. Common names for abilities	Names from other works
5. Descriptions of abilities	Descriptions
6. Possessor's name	If no non-speculative description is possible
Note: The highlighted row represents the level of the source used to determine gravitational manipulation's name.
Source/Explanation
"Gravitational manipulation" is the ability name listed in Stephen Canfield's assignment tracker profile.

Fourth dimension

In terms of dimensional alteration, there isn't such thing as a single collective "fourth dimension". It is unknown if fourth dimensions exist, but if they did, mathematically it would exist as a value on a coordinate plane. For instance, let's say the center of our universe exists at a (0,0,0) point in the space diagram. Well, if we accept that fourth dimensions exist, then we could call the coordinate (0,0,0,0) instead. That last point could be theoretically any value, ranging from -infinity to infinity. This allows an actually infinite number of universes by our perception, just like how three dimensions allow an infinite number of universes to two-dimensional objects.

If the vortexes work by dimensional travel, then it's possible that entering one of these vortexes transports you to a location whose fourth coordinate is different from that of our universe. Therefore, the multi-verse theory and dimensional transport theory can actually be the same thing.

(note: much of this is speculation derived from inferences after reading "Flatland", a novel that for all it's brilliance, does not delve deeply into fourth dimensions. If someone with greater knowledge of the subject could check this, that would be good) --Bulzeeb 14:43, October 14, 2008

• We don't know if it's a different fourth dimension or a different dimension altogether, but the writers did say the pull is dimensional. As to the fourth and other dimensions, I recommend you read Sphereland. It's a sequel to Flatland, but it's by a different author.--MiamiVolts (talk) 15:51, 14 October 2008 (EDT)
• Actually the forth dimension is time. -Lөvөl 03:37, 15 October 2008 (EDT)
  • Yes, time is normally considered the fourth dimension, but dimensions don't have to be ordered that way. If you are hypothesizing multiple spatial dimensions like in string theory, then it's easier to consider time the first dimension and everything thereafter another spatial dimension. In this case, I believe Bulzeeb was referring to a fourth spatial dimension.--MiamiVolts (talk) 04:02, 15 October 2008 (EDT)

Black holes

I removed the notes comment that the vortexes are black holes. From the story so far, it is not said whether or not that is true. They could also be wormholes (such as the ones from Sliders) or something altogether different.--MiamiVolts (talk) 15:51, 14 October 2008 (EDT)

Plurality

ACDC is right that one of the plurals of vortex is vortices. However, vortexes is also correct (see here). Personally, I don't care which we choose as long as we are consistent.--MiamiVolts (talk) 15:57, 14 October 2008 (EDT)

• They called them "vortexes" in the episode, right? If so I think that's what people may expect to see. (Admin 15:59, 14 October 2008 (EDT))
  • I agree, I personally prefer "vortexes". Either is correct. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 16:08, 14 October 2008 (EDT)
  • Yeah, we can add "vortexes" as a redirect and a note, or we can change the description back and add a note/redirect for "vortices". I'd like to read more opinions on this.--MiamiVolts (talk) 16:11, 14 October 2008 (EDT)

Canonicity

So we've gone from a canon name of "vortex creation" to a near-canon name of "gravitational manipulation". Was that a mistake? Are we now assuming all assignment tracker entries are canon because some appeared on the show? Assignment tracker entries top graphic novels in canonicity, but not the show itself, unless we are making that assumption.--MiamiVolts (talk) 20:51, 14 October 2008 (EDT)

• We did the same for Enhanced strength - I think it's OK in this case because his power wasn't specifically named in the show, but was described. "He can create vortexes" isn't the same as saying "He has the ability of Vortex creation."--Riddler 20:56, 14 October 2008 (EDT)
• I don't think it was a mistake, I think it may be an ambiguity in the naming convention we may need to fix. "Vortex creation" wasn't a canon name, it was a name we made up based on canon words. A canon name is when someone explicitly names or shows the name of the ability on the show. Whatever the case even a near-canon name would trump a description based on canonical words. (Admin 20:58, 14 October 2008 (EDT))
  • I actually hadn't realised that vortex creation was a top-level name until after I'd created it. My only argument against the change back was that Sandra described the ability but didn't name it, but the assignment tracker gave it a definite name. The file in Sandra's hand could have (I know, speculation) said his power was gravitational manipulation while describing it as creating vortecies (or vortexes, who knows). Therequiembellishere 20:58, 14 October 2008 (EDT)
    • Sorry, that conflicted twice so I repeat a bit. As a side note for Admin, which may be moved to the appropriate talk page, did the show ever specifically say "Elle has the power of lightning"? I know the Assignment Tracker map did say she had electric manipulation. Therequiembellishere 21:00, 14 October 2008 (EDT)
      • Incredible catch. Notes: Elle Bishop is an evolved human agent with the ability to generate electricity. - Should we discuss this at Lightning?--Riddler 21:03, 14 October 2008 (EDT)
        • Re-watch Four Months Ago.... There was apparently a reference to "lightning" in that episode that probably trumps it. I don't have the episode handy so I can't confirm it myself. (Admin 21:05, 14 October 2008 (EDT))
        • Peter has called it "lightning" in an episode and a GN. The difference here is there was no canon name given to this ability, but there was a name given on a near-canon source. The canon source always trumps the non-canon source. The difference is where the name comes from, in which case an interpretation of words versus an actual name.--Bob (talk) 21:07, 14 October 2008 (EDT)
  • Ah, I appreciate the clarification, Admin. Thanks, I'll remove the rename tag.--MiamiVolts (talk) 21:03, 14 October 2008 (EDT)
• Ryan and I discussed this issue on Help talk:Naming conventions if anyone's interested. --Bob (talk) 21:09, 14 October 2008 (EDT)
• So are we in agreement that it should be Vortex Creation? --Darmenos 22:36, October 14, 2008
  • No, not at all. We're actually saying that it should stay "gravitational manipulation".--Bob (talk) 22:46, 14 October 2008 (EDT)
    • Yes, gravitational manipulation was the direction we'd swayed. Therequiembellishere 22:49, 14 October 2008 (EDT)
      • More than swayed. We use the information that is given to us. The Company explicitly named the power "gravitational manipulation" in the assignment tracker profile. That's the most explicit information we've gotten, and we should go with it. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 22:50, 14 October 2008 (EDT)
      • ... Okay! Gravitational manipulation is good. I'll just be going now... <_< >_> ~~ Darmenos 22:04, 14 October 2008
        • Sorry.... Didn't mean to sound like I was jumping at you. :) -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 23:06, 14 October 2008 (EDT)
          • Eugh. Though I agree we should stick with the name they've used, "gravitational manipulation" is just clunky. It implies he could like...make chairs float away or people stick to the ground. --Matchu 23:30, 14 October 2008 (EDT)
            • Agree on the eugh, agree on the sticking with it, and agree on the floating chairs. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 23:34, 14 October 2008 (EDT)
              • I agree as well. That name brings images of Levitation to my mind instead of black holes/vortexes/vortices--Aburu 23:37, 14 October 2008 (EDT)
            • It's possible he could make chairs float away by creating a vortex above the roof, and make people stick to the ground by creating a vortex in the ground. We don't know that for sure. Regardless, I sympathize with the collective "Eugh" but I'm happy we didn't have to settle on something like "the drunken monkey's kiss". ;) (if you don't get that last part, don't worry... it's kind of an inside joke :))--MiamiVolts (talk) 23:45, 14 October 2008 (EDT)

Agreed. It's a very hard ability to classify. Still, it's human nature. Therequiembellishere 00:26, 15 October 2008 (EDT)

• Since when did Stephen manipulate and control gravity? That would mean he would be able to alter the gravity of all matter, for example, he'd alter the gravity of a person to make them weigh several tons or alter it go their as light as a feather. It makes no sense! It needs to be changed. The correction name convention would be Vortex, Matter obliteration or Obliteration--ACDC1989 04:05, 15 October 2008 (EDT)
  • "Matter obliteration" doesn't make anymore sense, since that'd imply he can just reduce a character to atoms or something. Plus, from a purely scientific standpoint, it's impossible. Matter can't be created nor destroyed/obliterated --Matchu 04:07, 15 October 2008 (EDT)
• It does make perfect sense. Yes i am aware of Matter not being destroyed very well indeed. Matter can't be created? Have you ever heard of the Big Bang by any chance? I meant obliteration in terms of obscuring or concealing - the change of shape and gravity in which the specific property has. Stephen obviously has that ability. Gravity has nothing to do with it thus the name for his ability is incorrect. --ACDC1989 04:16, 15 October 2008 (EDT)
  • In which case he's changing the physics of the property, so "matter" is incorrect. --Matchu 04:19, 15 October 2008 (EDT)
• Matchu do you know what the basic element in science is? Matter. Even Stephen Hawking stated that black holes evaporate, which states the changing of matter. Whether in Physics, Biology, Chemistry or Mathematics. Matter is everywhere hence a major part of it. If a human were to go through a black hole the 'pull' would be so great it would disintergate you into a particle smaller than a light particle. You would be instantly crushed and then you will never be seen again because nothing and not even light can escape a black hole. Thus matter would be obscured and concealed. Scientists would argue that one would change in terms of the property of matter. The term gravitational manipulation is wrong becuase that would mean Stephen has mastery over all forms of gravity. --ACDC1989 04:25, 15 October 2008 (EDT)
  • "Correct" or "incorrect", the term we will be using for Canfield's power is "gravitational manipulation". Besides the fact that it does make sense (if he creates a black hole, that has everything to do with gravity), it's the name given to us. Heroes Wiki is primarily a site that catalogs and archives the world of Heroes, not a site that makes scientific conjectures or debates the laws of science, or even of science fiction. If the world of Heroes calls the power "gravitational manipulation", so do we. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 04:30, 15 October 2008 (EDT)
  • That's not what would happen. First you'd be "stretched" and torn apart (a process know as spaghettification, yes it's a real word) into elementary particles. What happens at the singularity is unknown. That's, of course, providing you fall into a Schwarzschild. Oh and on an offshoot, things do escape black holes; that's how we know they're there. Anyway, this random science aside is pointless, the article shouldn't be changed because we have a near-canon source on it (the tracker).--Matchu 04:33, 15 October 2008 (EDT)
• Ok kk, Ryan and Matchu. I'd like to state something though. If his ability was gravitational manipulation he would manipulate and control all forms of gravity. Theoretically he the could change the weight of objects, fly, or form forcefields. Does that mean we are chaning 'Freezing' and 'Pyrokinesis' to temperature manipulation because that has everything to do with temperature. Or what about "Flight" - can we change that to gravitational manipulation as well? What about regeneration? How about blood or cell manipulation?--ACDC1989 04:39, 15 October 2008 (EDT)