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Talk:Examples of pyrokinesis

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This list of examples seems quite sparse to me. Almost like everything here could just go back on the regular page. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 23:19, 30 October 2007 (EDT)

  • Agreed, I linked it to the pages simply because it existed (and was orphaned). If examples begin to get numerous, this page should exist, but until then it seems redundant to have it. Lulu 23:22, 30 October 2007 (EDT)
    • I'm glad you did link it, otherwise I might not have seen it. (By the way, thanks for taking care of those orphaned pages and uncategorized images.) Anyway, I'd much rather see it go back on pyrokinesis until we have more examples. Wishful thinking, I guess. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 23:24, 30 October 2007 (EDT)
      • The pyrokinesis page actually hold ALL of the pictures and examples this pages does. So, it already is done. I can't say we'd be losing any information at all by deleting the page. (And, not a problem. Something to do in spare time.) Lulu 23:28, 30 October 2007 (EDT)
        • I'll mark it for deletion. Our policy has generally been to only add examples pages after 10-12 examples exist. And the page should be more detailed with examples than the originating page. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 23:33, 30 October 2007 (EDT)

OK guys, let's think out of the box just a bit. With pyro being brought back into attention this week, and with 3 different people (as we know so far) having shown it, and it being a fairly common power-type, it's growth is pretty much assured. Instead of deleting it, and having to go back later and re-add it all over again, why not simply reconsider another approach that would allow us to keep it (and to finish expanding all of the powers pages so that they all have an examples page.

I would like to submit the notion of doing an overall change to the powers pages, so that they parallel how we do episodic images. No Episode pages hold episodic gallery pictures. However, each episodic page has under the 'See Also' header, * "For images from Genesis, see Images from Genesis."

This makes the main-page, clean, neat, consistent across all episodes, and allows for an images page that can grow and isn't limited to size or number of picture constraints.

I would like us to consider doing the same thing with each power page. Consider the power-page being the same as the episodic-page. Each power-page would have its gallery removed, but would have a See Also section entry entitled: * "For images of Pyrokinesis, see Images of Pyrokinesis." This would allow all power pages to have an examples page, and it would allow for future growth, maintain a standard format that matches the Episodic-images format, and it would leave more room on the powers-mainpage for text detail and info.

Any takers? p.s. I will take a could power-page examples of what I am talking about, and copy them over into my user-space, and mock them up in this fashion, so everyone can get a better look at what it would be like. Give me a few minutes, and I'll respond back to this discussion with the links. --HiroDynoSlayer (talk) 10/31/2007 09:37 (EST)

  • OK...click on this link to a test-menu(simulates the powers portal), that will let you go to two powers pages that have this new suggested format that parallels how we do the episodic-images formatting. User:HiroDynoSlayer/PowersTest This format change would allow us to have example pages for each power, and not limit it based on numerical count, keep the main power-page small for future growth, and allow it to grow as new power examples are displayed. --HiroDynoSlayer (talk) 10/31/2007 09:53 (EST)
  • I just don't think all of the powers pages need examples pages. The examples pages only exist because the powers pages were getting long. The image galleries on the powers page are pretty essential, since they illustrate the various effects of the power. Episodes don't have image galleries because they'd just be a random grouping of unrelated images and because they'd bloat up like memorable quotes do as people pick their favorite images. Powers are an entirely different type of article, since they detail one power across episodes and across characters. I'd rather add examples pages when needed, just like we do with, say, season history summaries, which is a much better analogy than episode pages. Plus, the image category makes a poor substitution for a gallery since it can't be captioned, sorted by episode, etc. It's an acceptable choice for Episode articles because there's no workable way to have an image gallery on the article pages, which are already very long, and since all of the images in the episode category come from the same episode.--Hardvice (talk) 10:30, 31 October 2007 (EDT)
    • Here is another case-in-point. I just went by the "enhanced strength' page which has its own "enhanced strength examples" subpage (Enhanced strength and Examples of enhanced strength). The primary page lists 11 arbitrary text examples, and 8 arbitrary gallery images. The examples page lists 23 all-inclusive text examples, and 29 all-inclusive gallery images. (all of the first mainpage, are included again in the second-subpage) That to me, is a big redundancy. To determine which examples and images are unique to the examples page, you have to jump back and forth between the two pages to try and figure out what is unique to the examples page only. Again, wouldn't it be more clear, both for this page, and all powers pages, if there was just one-page that listed all the text examples and gallery images? Whether or not we have examples pages for all powers or not is something I can see waiting on, if there isn't many examples for some of the powers....but I really can't see why we are keeping so much redundancy on the examples pages we do have, back to the original power page. I just think it would be easier to navigate and find information, if there were duplicate entries in both places. --HiroDynoSlayer (talk) 10/31/2007 16:13 (EST)
      • I'm really not following you. You do or don't want duplicate entries? "I just think it would be easier to navigate and find information, if there were duplicate entries in both places" makes it sound like you do, but that's what we have now: the power page lists a few examples, and the examples page lists everything--both those on the power page and all other examples. If you're suggesting putting all of the examples on the example page and removing them from the powers page (which is what I got from your sample pages), then I again say that the examples on the powers page are important to illustrate the various ways the power works -- one lead image isn't going to cut it, so I'd hate to see all the examples removed. At the same time, the examples pages are supposed to be exhaustive, so I'd hate to remove the entries which are on the power page because that makes the example page less useful as a stand-alone article. Now if you're suggesting doing away with the text examples and just keeping the images (or better yet, merging the two), then I'm all for it. But I think a powers article without some examples is a bad article, and an examples article that's not complete is also a bad article.--Hardvice (talk) 16:49, 31 October 2007 (EDT)

My Bad, definately a typo on my part...I DO NOT Want duplicates. That was my point. I agree with you that the examples page 'should be' exhaustive, and contain everything worth putting there. The main page has summary and other sections to explain and discuss the power and its characteristics. That should be very thorough. As it is now, you have to double-check both pages, to see if the example-text entry, and the example-image entry are included in the supposed 'all exhaustive examples page'. Let's say a regular member or a newbie either one, or both, sign in and post some new examples or images to any power page. But maybe, they either forget, or don't know or realize there is a all-exhaustive power page. They only put their entries on the main-page in its examples and images. Now either we end up having to tightly police both pages of every power, keeping things in order, or we end up with some examples and images that don't get put in the exhaustive examples page. Nothing clearly nor specifically on the main power page, tells the reader how, or how-many, or what criteria, to either add or not add entries to the example list or the image list. They just have to know that they are duplicated in two places, and they have to then figure out which place is best to make updates to. If we just kept them all on one page, then all confusion for anyone, and all duplicitous maintenance also goes away. If we simply kept all examples (text and images) on the linked page, that would give anyone all the info they would ever want about any specific power. The main page still has the summary, the notes, the charcters, the infobox picture, the characters, and the limits sections....only the duplicated examples and images parts are moved over to the subpage. To make it easy to know this, we could move the 'examples link' out of the infobox, (which it is easy to overlook), and make it a main-page section just like the other sections. Just think of it this way, no examples are being removed....they are all there and ready for reviewing, you just have to go to the sub-page if you want to see them, and add to them. All duplication is removed, and all uncertainty as to which examples and which entries are allowed or are too many, or shouldn't be put on the main-page goes away. Don't think of it as making the powers-main page incomplete, it is just spanning the completion of the page over two-pages, so that it doesn't create duplicity or a single page that is too bulky and unmanageable. I guess what really gets me with the current design, is there are no clear rules, explanations, etc...that show on the main power-page what and why more examples and images should or shouldn't be placed there; and in what situation they should be removed and put on the exhaustive sub-page, and where the differentiation should be made. I've been here since almost the beginning of the site, and I don't know this distinction clearly, and as more and more new folks come online, I can see them even moreso, being confused as to where to list power example text and images; and on which page.

How about looking at this approach? I re-did two powers pages and subpages at the following userpage test area: User:HiroDynoSlayer/PowersTest I combined all text and image examples into the subpage, so it is not redundant, and it makes it much clearer to me. --HiroDynoSlayer (talk) 10/31/2007 17:48 (EST)

  • There's a lot I like about this approach. I'm all for combining galleries and text when the overlap is 100% -- we did this long ago with Isaac's paintings, we did it with The Symbol, etc. But I just can't shake the feeling that a powers article with no examples seems incomplete. It would be better (though still troubling) if the section with the link to examples was still labeled "examples", since I have a feeling that most people won't look for it in a "see also" section. A link to the examples page in the infobox would also be good. Again, I'm trying to think of how successfully each of the two articles stands on its own as an article, since we have to assume that that's how a viewer would see it. And this would pretty much guarantee that we would have to add an examples page for each power' otherwise, the power articles would be very inconsistent from one another. I think you're on to something; maintenance would definitely be better, we'd probably have to edit most of the powers pages much less frequently, etc. If you don't mind, I'm going to try the changes I mentioned and see what it does to assuage my doubts.--Hardvice (talk) 18:04, 31 October 2007 (EDT)

I'm coming a little late to this discussion, so I'll just add my comments here. If we want to retool the way the examples pages look by combining the text and the images, that's fine with me. I don't mind either way. But I don't think we should touch the general structure of the main powers pages. I like that there are limits and information about each power, and then just a sample of examples. The examples chosen are somewhat arbitrary, but that's not an entirely fair statement. I believe most of us have tried to choose examples that are the most illustrative, have demonstrated different facets of the power (for instance, induced radioactivity includes the EMP, small fireballs, some glowing hands, and huge explosions), and hopefully an image of each holder of the power. There are no hard and fast rules for which images/examples are chosen for the main power page. Anybody can change them, but I think they're best if they are the most illustrative (for instance, Matt making a poop face isn't that illustrative, but F_Matt putting his ear up to Bennet tells a lot more about the power).

As for the validity of this examples page, where virtually nothing differs from the main power page, I find that misleading. When somebody clicks on a link to an examples page, I think they're expecting something different than the page they were just on. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 21:17, 31 October 2007 (EDT)

    • OK, based on what Hardvice said above, and what Ryan said (leaving the mainpages limits and other info alone, and removing the double-redundancy on this page to the mainpage; I am going to update the Pyro page and subpage. This can be a rough-draft run, and if you guys can buy into it on the Pyro page, then we can look into doing the other pages to fit the new design. If you decide you really don't like it, we can roll the main Pyro page back, and delete this new subpage. I'll get them done in a few minutes. --HiroDynoSlayer (talk) 11/1/2007 09:39 (EST)
      • Update made. Now anyone can get all of the info about Pyro on the main Pyro page. However, if they want to get the specific details of every example (the exhuastive list), then the click in the Examples section, and wa-lah, they get everything, all in one page, with no redundancies, and that will be the only spot we have to update when new fiery people and events show up in the future. Can we keep this format and update the other Powers to match? --HiroDynoSlayer (talk) 11/1/2007 09:48 (EST)
        • I'm still torn. I like the simplicity of it, but I'm still not sure I like the look of the Power page without examples. That said, I really wish you hadn't moved it to the main namespace. Having one page different from all the others really, really bugs me. If it's a test, it belongs in a userpage, plain and simple. We shouldn't have two different styles clashing in the mainspace.--Hardvice (talk) 14:48, 1 November 2007 (EDT)
          • Slayer, I appreciate the work you did on it, and I really am glad that you're trying to find new ways to organize pages, but I really don't like it, personally. I don't mean to be harsh, I'm just trying to be honest. I think it's really important to have pictures on pyrokinesis. When the pictures and examples get to be too long, then it's a good idea to have just a sampling (10-12 examples, and a nice neat gallery of 8) on the main power page, and put the exhaustive list in an examples page. That's my personal opinion. If there's an overwhelming opinion otherwise, then I'll live with it. But I'd much rather roll it back, delete this page, and chalk it up to a good try that just doesn't work quite right. :) -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 14:55, 1 November 2007 (EDT)
            • What about combining the text examples and the images (both on the main power page and on examples)? I really like that idea, but we don't really have an exhaustive set of pictures (I'm guessing we're mostly missing Matt's "who farted?" face, since it's kind of repetitive). But we could put the missing examples in the gallery with image:blank.jpg, add a needs images template/cat, and go back and get caps for the missing ones.--Hardvice (talk) 15:00, 1 November 2007 (EDT)
              • OK guys, my goal wasn't to strand the Pyro main-page, to be different than the others. I had hoped that you guys would see that it was a simple, yet clean and organized change, that would make things better for the future, and with that, then give me the green-light to go ahead and convert the other powers pages to match. (You didn't want me to do all of them until you were sure, right?) If you think that we could go to this new format, I would be willing to do the work (in my userSpace), for all the Powers mainpages and examples subpages, then do a big merge-move....but I see two hurdles to this. 1) it will take awhile to do, and I don't see how we could keep folks from making changes while the new versions are being all mocked up in my user area, and 2) it seems to me that you guys would rather leave things as they are, and not undergo this change anyway. It seems noone else cares, because noone but you two guys have commented either in this thread, or in the test-drafts of this in my user area. At this point, unless you guys say otherwise, I guess I will just let this idea die; and suffer along and deal with the duplicates and redundancies. I would ask this though....if things stay the same, come up with some way to document so everyone can understand, how many, and what, why, etc...are to be included on mainpages verses the subpage, and when are subpages meritted nor not. I've gotten a somewhat better idea myself, since we have been discussing this, but I'm sure the rest of the population really doesn't know what is expected, and the next time someone does new power pics, they'll get added to the mainspace instead of the subpage, and have to be followed along behind and moved and backed out. --HiroDynoSlayer (talk) 11/1/2007 16:04 (EST)
                • I personally like it. I just don't think it should be in the mainspace until there's consensus about it. And assuming nobody objects to merging the text/images, then the changes can be carried out easily in two stages: merge the text and images, and then make the necessary changes to powers. The second stage will be a lot faster and easier than you think, since it can mostly be cn'pd from page to page with minor changes. As for documentation, the only thing that would really work is a comment on each power page, to the effect of ONLY LIST 12 EXAMPLES IN THIS SECTION. ADD OTHERS TO (name of example page). And you've seen how well other such comments work...--Hardvice (talk) 16:14, 1 November 2007 (EDT)
                  • Merging text and images is a fine idea. I hadn't thought about the examples for which no image exists; using Image:neededimage.jpg is a good idea. A note on the examples section is about the only thing I can think of. I personally don't mind even if there are a few more than "allowed", but I just try to go through and give each page a haircut every once in awhile. But I really don't like the idea of a powers page without images, or an examples page that is either non-exhaustive or unneeded. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 20:55, 1 November 2007 (EDT)
  • So what should the plan of attack/approach be? Merging the text and images on both the powers page and (if one exists) the Examples of powers sub-page? I'll be glad to get starting doing this, but want to be sure there is consensus. --HiroDynoSlayer (talk) 11/2/2007 10:43 (EST)
    • That'd be great if you wanted to do that. Thanks so much, HDS. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 22:05, 30 November 2007 (EST)
  • Delete. --Hero!(talk)(contribs) 21:58, 30 November 2007 (EST)

New format

Okay, I'm really not understanding the new format of the powers pages. I like that the text and images are combined, but it seems like a lot of the examples are missing from the pages. There are powers that don't have examples pages and don't have an exhaustive list of powers, which seems wrong to me. There are powers that do have examples pages but have galleries of 9 images when 8 or 12 would look much better. I just need a bit of explanation as to how they're set up because I'm missing something. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 01:03, 4 November 2007 (EDT)

  • Just finished the whole lot. My goal, was to combine the 'Examples Text entry section' with the 'Example images' on the main pages. (Not even messing with the full-exhaustive sub-examples pages that some powers have that need to be combined)...just the main-pages. I took the gallery and the text list, and combined them into one examples section. That pretty much meant adding the episode suffix to the gallery images, and adding the image prefix to the examples list. I ordered them in episodic order, and then deleted any redundant entries between both of them...(some pages were almost an exact match, some pages were significantly different). Some of the bigger power pages, like TK or Regen, etc...ended up with more than 8 or 12 selected examples....But I didn't get into making the decision on which ones to cut down or removed. I just left the entire list, and figure you or Hardvice, or one of the other Admins would probably like to decide which entries to cull out, and remove from the mainpage list. In some cases, we didn't have an image for a text-list item, so I went out and found one, and uploaded it. In a few cases, I couldn't find an image, so as Hardvice suggested, I used the noimage tag for both the page, and the image itself. As far as powers that don't have example pages, that a whole nother task. My goal wasn't to create examples pages for the powers that didn't have them. (Although I personally would like to see every power have its own subpage of exhaustive examples), that idea seemed to get nixed as we discussed it last week. So I guess what I see us at right now, is the first stage completion of a three step process. My first step was to combine the example text and image lists on each power's main page. (Done). The next task, that someone besides me needs to look into (probably the admin brain-trust), is deciding which 8 or 12 examples on the bigger pages, need to remain. The 3rd and final stage, should probably be the merging of the subpages text examples and images into one single list similar to these. There shouldn't be any power examples missing on any of the main-pages though, because my goal was not to remove examples, just to merge the examples that were already there. If any did get dropped in the process on any specific power page, it shouldn't be that difficult to re-add them. --HiroDynoSlayer (talk) 11/5/2007 11:38 (EST)
    • A few concerns/changes/exceptions which arose during this proess:
      1. While no examples were dropped to my knowledge, some images were when we had more than one example for an image (notably on Adoptive muscle memory). If an article has an examples page, that's no big deal, and I actually like the results quite a bit (a one-or-two image example on the power page and a full example on the Examples page). But if no examples page existed, those images are just orphaned. I tried to catch what I could -- I added examples pages for AMM, Clairvoyance, and Maya's ability. Chances are good I missed some. If the power is going to end up with an Examples page soon, then great--hopefully we'll catch any orphaned images then. If not, then I guess we just have orphaned images.
      2. If an examples page existed, I cut the galleries for the ones which were complete as of yesterday to 8-10 images (10 with perrow=5) -- basically 8, but I allowed 10 if there were only 10 images and no example page, particularly on powers we're not likely to see again like Bliss and Horror. I left Empathic mimicry alone because I agree that it's important to show one of each power duped.
      3. As I added Examples pages when necessary, I added them in the "new" style (galleries only).--Hardvice (talk) 14:27, 5 November 2007 (EST)
        1. 1. One good way I found, (while undertaking this project), in finding needed images, (I would think this would also apply to orphans), is to go to the 'Images from Unexpected' page, and browse for the desired image there. Usually when a power was manifested, we have a pretty good idea what epi it was from, so it is pretty easy to find any orphans that way. We tend to do a really good job tagging the images with the epis they belong to, so I found that to be a real useful approach to finding pics.
        2. 2. I haven't added any new examples pages (other than this Pyro I did last week). I would like to see all-exhaustive examples subpages for all powers personally. I agree with you on Peter though, his power, because of its 'collecting nature', its mainpage should show each example of each power, as should Sylar.
        3. 3. I think in the long run, we will all like this approach, both for entry, maintenance, and research. --HiroDynoSlayer (talk) 11/5/2007 15:00 (EST)
    • Okay, cuts made for the remaining powers. Here's how I tried to do it:
      1. I merged any season one and season two galleries into one. If we're only going to have eight images, it doesn't make sense to split them by season, and in fact most of the powers had galleries which already combined season one and season two images.
      2. I tried to show:
        1. examples of all the characters who've used the ability
        2. examples from both seasons
        3. both episodic and GN examples
        4. examples of any variations or stunts pulled with the powers.--Hardvice (talk) 15:01, 5 November 2007 (EST)
  • Just did a couple more....the following 13 "examples-subpages" are still yet unmerged...

Examples of electronic data transception, Examples of empathic mimicry, Examples of enhanced strength, Examples of flight, Examples of illusion, Examples of induced radioactivity, Examples of invisibility, Examples of mental manipulation, Examples of phasing, Examples of rapid cell regeneration, Examples of space-time manipulation, Examples of telekinesis, Examples of telepathy --HiroDynoSlayer (talk) 11/12/2007 16:11 (EST)

  • I disagree with the idea of merging the examples and images in the "Example" pages. Doing that on the main page looks nice, but it doesn't work so well on the example pages. The descriptions have to be shortened for the image captions to look better, and most of the descriptions shouldn't be shortened. Not only that, some of the examples don't have representative images to go with them. Anyone else agree?--Ice Vision 19:42, 12 November 2007 (EST)
    • Personally, I like merging the sections. It gets rid of a pretty huge redundancy. And examples without images should have images added anyway.--Hardvice (talk) 19:59, 12 November 2007 (EST)

I think that this article should be kept based on the articles that HiroDynoSlayer mentioned. I do think it might need some textual information added to it as well. --Pinkkeith 10:14, 21 November 2007 (EST)

    • Just did the Haitian power merge...now there are only 11 pages that haven't been merged.

Examples of electronic data transception, Examples of empathic mimicry, Examples of enhanced strength, Examples of flight, Examples of illusion, Examples of induced radioactivity, Examples of invisibility, Examples of phasing, Examples of space-time manipulation, Examples of telekinesis, Examples of telepathy --HiroDynoSlayer (talk) 12/18/2007 12:25 (EST)

please don't do this to me

i don't agree and it that page will be delete tell me where i can find the images

  • All the images available on this page are also available on the Pyrokinesis page. -- Lulu (talk)
    • Right, the point of the delete is simply that there aren't enough images to warrant a page of its own. Since we only have six examples/images, they should reside on pyrokinesis. Our policy is generally to only create examples pages after there are 12 examples. We're not getting rid of the examples themselves, just the page dedicated to them. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 19:54, 26 November 2007 (EST)
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