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Talk:Mental manipulation/Archive 2

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WARNING: Talk:Mental manipulation/Archive 2 is an archive of past messages. New messages should be added to Talk:Mental manipulation.

Could the Hatian's ability of memory manipulation be his only power?

I think that something like neurocognitive deficit is too wordy, although i think mental manipulation is an inaccurate term, its one that is not as wordy.

Could perhaps that the Haitian's blocking ability is related to his memory erasure, like the Haitian makes the mind forget they either had an ability or know how to use it subconsciously. horrorman 20:47, 11 December 2007 (EST)

  • They're definitely related somehow. People certainly don't forget that they have powers, since many of them try to use them in his presence. It's possibly he's instead causing them to forget how to activate their powers; however, were that the case, it seems likely that the effect would be permanent, like his memory erasures. Instead, the effect only lasts while they are in his presence.--Hardvice (talk) 22:59, 11 December 2007 (EST)


It's seems to make memories forget permanently he must be in physical contact range to do so i.e. with his hand over their eyes. But perhaps with abilities he can induce an electrical signal of sorts sometimes unwittingly as we see with his father that makes the subconscious deactivate the triggering mechanism. It doesn't affect inherit powers either because he allows them to be active, or due to their passive nature and therefore not requiring concentration he cannot shut off the trigger. horrorman 23:03, 11 December 2007 (EST)

    • I think that his ability is MEMORY DELETION. He seems to require physical contact to make the forgetting permanent but at a distance especially with evolved humans he makes them forget the subconscious triggers of their powers. Passive powers are simply activated constantly in the conscious mind and it requires no triger so he [The Haitian] cannot negate it. And for active powers if you struggle hard enough (causing injury or nosebleeds(Fallout)).horrorman 12:00, 12 December 2007 (EST)
      • Consider this analogy that, while complete speculation, may help understand how The Haitian's power could work. I don't know how many people have ever tried placing a magnet near a CRT television (which are becoming less and less common nowadays), but a magnet will discolor the image (don't try this out on a good television, please). If you leave the magnet close to the television for too long the discoloration becomes permanent. His powers may work in a similar way. He may be able to interfere with the part of the brain that manifests the abilities. When he erases memories he could be using more intensity so that the interference leaves a permanent effect (like the magnet above). If his power works along these lines there are some interesting possibilities... could he kill someone by interfering with autonomic parts of the brain? It's interesting (albeit complete speculation on my part). (Admin 12:29, 12 December 2007 (EST))


I think this may be true, he seems ot have caused significant brain damage to Mrs. Bennet such as a hemorrage and complete memory loss at times. He must use a sort of electrical signal to kill the brain cells.

horrorman 12:44, 12 December 2007 (EST)

Could the Haitians ability be lethal?

  • The Haitian was able to turn his villagers into mindless zombies by simply reaching in and taking their memories. Could he perhaps erase the brains capability of working, killing them?

horrorman 18:17, 12 December 2007 (EST)

Remove rename

  • So are we all in agreement that there's not enough evidence to say that "neurocognitive deficit" is explicitly a reference to the Haitian's power and/or its effects? If so, we should remove the rename.--Hardvice (talk) 02:19, 13 December 2007 (EST)
    • I am. that change would have been an eyesore. Although to me it would be like that time the Anaheim Angels thought they changed their name to The Los Angeles Angels of Anaheim.--SacValleyDweller (talk) 02:35, 13 December 2007 (EST)
      • Yeah, there's no evidence neurocognitive deficit is related. I pulled the rename template.--MiamiVolts (talk) 02:42, 13 December 2007 (EST)

"Call in a Nullifier! Call in the Haitian!"

Nullification? As of the newest Graphic Novel, at least. --Riddler 04:12, 15 July 2008 (EDT)

  • Unfortunately, the comment isn't the same as explicitly saying the Haitian's ability is "ability nullification". The Haitian can both nullify abilities and erase memories, so that's why we have mental manipulation. I see what you're saying, though. See talk:constriction for a similar discussion.--MiamiVolts (talk) 04:39, 15 July 2008 (EDT)
  • When it comes to this ability name I'd really like to see the writers (or an actual episode of the show) give us a name for it. It's an ability we've seen for so long and is complicated to completely qualify with a single term so it'd be nice to have an authoritative source explicitly name it. An assignment tracker page would be fantastic. (hint hint) (Admin 10:43, 15 July 2008 (EDT))
  • One could say he nullifies the target's memory. Also, the debate has been going on for so long now, if a profile was created, odds are the writers would just call it mental manipulation, like what happened with mediumship. --Yamawhata? 17:49, 2 September 2008 (EDT)
    • Mediumship? Huh? RD Hall called it that before we even really had the page created. In fact, he sent me an email after our interview and asked me if we had created the page yet. By coincidence, we had used the same name he said. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 18:50, 2 September 2008 (EDT)
      • Heh. FWIW, that was kind of a Neil Armstrong moment there, as regards to the RD Hall interview... When I transcribed that part of the interview, I guess I wasn't really able to make out what he had said. I thought he had said "Medium receptive" (as is documented in my initial transcription here). It was clarified afterwards that he meant "Mediumship" and supposedly had also said that.--MiamiVolts (talk) 19:19, 2 September 2008 (EDT)
        • The impression I got from the mediumship page was that the writer borrowed our term for it. Sorry if I got it wrong. I was also thinking about intuitive aptitude, which I am sure we came up with long before they did. --Yamawhata? 16:46, 3 September 2008 (EDT)

Effects on Human Memory correction

Quote in question:

"Noah explains to Ivan that the Haitian can remove specific memories, insinuating that this ability was previously unknown to Ivan."


IIRC, Noah actually states that his friend here has learned a new trick, so it's actually confirmed more than insinuated that Ivan didn't know about the selective memory removal.

Stevehim 04:40, 27 September 2008 (EDT)

Better Pic

Who about when he puts his hand into Peters head?--Skywalkerrbf 16:12, 5 October 2008 (EDT)

  • I don't understand what you're saying. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 20:32, 5 October 2008 (EDT)
    • I believe he's saying there should be a different lead picture for the article, more specifically one of him putting his hand on Peter's head. I personally don't even remember that.--Riddler 20:44, 5 October 2008 (EDT)

I think he is referring to, when Peter was in the crate in Season 2 the one that went to Ireland {50000JH}

Explanation of speculation removal - power affecting different abilities

The idea that the Haitian's powers affect different abilities to different degrees is speculation, as we don't know if he was using his power or not (especially since all of the instances involve a Petrelli, and he was secretly working for Angela at the time of each incident), and should not be present in the body of the article. Any ideas in that regard should probably go in the notes section, or be designated unknown (eg - "It is unknown if the Haitian's power equally affects all abilities"). --Stevehim 09:59, 1 November 2008 (EDT)

Examples of abilities blocked

When was the Haitian's power shown to stop sound manipulation or enhanced strength? -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 14:26, 1 November 2008 (EDT)

  • The Haitian blocked both in the graphic novel where Knox and Jesse are captured by Noah and him (Graphic Novel:The Sting of Injustice).--MiamiVolts (talk) 14:28, 1 November 2008 (EDT)
    • But they're not up there now...? -- FlamingTomDude 21:17, 16 November 2008 (EST)
      • That's because they're using a template that needs to be deleted. I'll take care of it. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 21:21, 16 November 2008 (EST)
    • Did the events of Graphic Novel:The Sting of Injustice take place before those of Four Months Ago? If not, we should change the blocking of enhanced strength to the latter, since he prevented Peter from using it then. While I'm on the subject, do we have any way to determine where the GN's/Webisodes/iStory fit in the overall timeline, in relation to events of the episodes? I wanted to make one (or add it to the existing one), but I have no idea where to start or how to find out when everything took place. --Stevehim 18:24, 30 December 2008 (EST)
      • Yes. HRG quit the Company before Four Months Ago, and did not go back to work until Knox escaped. - Josh (talk/contribs) 14:42, 15 January 2009 (EST)

Did West try to fly away from The Haitain in Special{50000JH}

cause if he did try to fly the Haitain might of blocked flight{50000JH}

Telepathy

I believe this power to be a derived form of Telepathy, as telepaths can steal memories (as told to us by Arthur Petrelli). Perhaps the Haitian is just really good at certain aspects of Telepathy (power nullification) and not good at others (mind reading).--Oxico 07:39, 13 November 2008 (EST)

He didn't steal Angela's memories, he altered them, which is not the same thing as erasing them. Linderman said he erased them, so it might be possible, but there are other abilities that though different can cause the same effects, this is just one of them. Intuitive Empath 10:43, 13 November 2008 (EST)

I don't know it's just too similar.--Oxico 19:24, 19 November 2008 (EST)

  • I know what you mean. But to elaborate on your comments, maybe its not because the Haitian isn't good at mind reading and the like, we just haven't seen the Haitian use his ability like Matt. Titan3510 18:54, 2 December 2008 (EST)

Maury was able to block Matt's telepath ability, Noah also commented on what the brain control you control, so Haitain power could be telepathic and Matt could block abilities and it is another of his development like precognition{50000JH}

If the Haitian was telepathic, he'd have done many other things, simpler things. He didn't. Intuitive Empath - Talk - Contributions 14:30, 20 June 2009 (EDT)

Arthur and Hiro

Arthur's intention was to erase only those memories Hiro gained on his spirit walk, but due to Ando's interruption and Arthur's preoccupation with one of Usutu's paintings of an eclipse, he mistakenly erased years worth of Hiro's memory, leaving Hiro in the mentality that he was ten years old. When did this come up? I don't remember hearing that in an episode... --Yamawhata? 21:21, 4 December 2008 (EST)

It was confirmed in one of the most recent "Behind the Eclipse" interviews. Sincerely, Thrashmeister [ U | T | C ] 21:29, 4 December 2008 (EST)
Then the BTE interview needs to be linked as a source. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 21:37, 4 December 2008 (EST)

Confirmation of Peter having Absorbed MM

If Arthur stole it from Peter and used it on Hiro, this confirms that Peter had absorbed it (and thus should have been capable of mimicking it). Should Peter Petrelli (exposed future) be listed as a confirmed user then, since he informed Claire in the gn Resistance that he "made her forget" things before? GabrielPetrelli 09:09, 24 December 2008 (EST)

  • Authur made Angela forget that he wanted to kill nathan this was before he made Hiro forget (I cant remeber which episode this appeared in), she only regained he memory when Linderman healed them. laughingdevilboy
    • I thought it was believed that he was using Telepathy then, and was altering her mind to believe falsehoods about Nathan that led her to a conclusion that Nathan needed to die. There's no evidence that she was having memories erased, but rather altered. GabrielPetrelli 09:17, 24 December 2008 (EST)
  • We would need confirmation that Peter is where Arthur got it from first. Listing things under the 'exposed' section on the various Peter pages means he has absorbed it (imo), but we don't list things under mimicked until he actually displays the ability (eg - if Arthur had used Molly's power to locate Hiro in Africa, we wouldn't go and list Peter as having mimicked it at an unknown time). If we have confirmation that Arthur got mental manipulation from Peter, it would be closer to being able to say for sure that 'make you forget' meant Future Peter was using it, but I still think it's speculative, as he could have been using another power to do so as well. A similar scenario would be if Peter said 'I've seen the future.' We wouldn't know if he was using precognition, precognitive dreaming, or space-time manipulation, and so we couldn't assume one or another without confirmation. --Stevehim 09:19, 24 December 2008 (EST)
    • I'd have to rewatch the episode for the wording, but under telepathy we currently list (in Arhtur's section):
"Arthur was already an experienced user of telepathy in April 2006. He can use this ability to read thoughts, project thoughts, control a person's behavior and personality, and alter a person's memories. According to Daniel Linderman, lasting telepathic alterations, such as constant mind control or erasing memories, to a person's mind leave "scars" but evolved humans possessing the ability of healing or regeneration can counter memory loss by healing the scars."
Does anyone recall if Linderman used the word 'erase' in that episode? --Stevehim 09:22, 24 December 2008 (EST)
I'm sadly at work today, but I can try to check later if no one else can. I appreciate your points though; your example of the "I've seen the future" line is a good one. I guess it comes down to what telepathy is confirmed to be capable of? GabrielPetrelli 09:33, 24 December 2008 (EST)
The episode doesn't appear to be online anymore, so I can't check, and sadly it is long gone from the DVR (since it's my roommate's). If there was no specific mention or indication that the memories were erased as opposed to altered, however, then we should credit Future Peter with mental manipulation, and change all comments about telepathy erasing menmories to it altering them (eg - on the episode page, on the telepathy page, on Arthur's page, etc). Do you (or anyone else) have a way to view the episode again, to see if erasure was stated or implied anywhere? --Stevehim 09:39, 24 December 2008 (EST)
It's still on my DVR. Do you happen to know the name of that episode? GabrielPetrelli 09:54, 24 December 2008 (EST)
It was Villains -- laughingdevilboy 15:05, 24 December 2008 (GMT)
Arthur kept bombarding Angela's mind with "it has to be done" messages. When Linderman spoke with Angela, she remembered that Arthur had something important to do, that it had to be done, but she couldn't quite remember what it was. That suggests to me that telepathy doesn't actually erases memories, but blocks them somehow. She knew she knew something, she just couldn't pinpoint what she knew. Intuitive Empath - Talk - Contributions 10:08, 24 December 2008 (EST)
Behind the Eclipse specifically noted that Arthur used the Haitian's ability to erase Hiro's mind.--Referos 12:53, 24 December 2008 (EST)
We still don't know if Peter ever used it though, or even if Arthur got it from his son. --Stevehim 13:01, 24 December 2008 (EST)
He must have absorbed it from Peter. Since the Haitian still has his ability, the only other source for this power is Peter. Well, I suppose that's speculative anyway. I mean, Arthur could have theoretically travelled to the future and and taken Future Haitian's ability, but I digress. --Referos 13:38, 24 December 2008 (EST)
We don't know that the Haitian is the only one with that ability (in fact, we do list one other person...Anna). I simply meant that Arthur may have gotten the ability from someone we have never heard of, as he presumably did with telepathy. --Stevehim 14:49, 24 December 2008 (EST)
  • He might of used telepathy I just interrupted it that he had made her forget as in using MM. laughingdevilboy 14:23, 24 December 2008 (GMT)
What the hell are you arguing about? You complete biscuit munchers! Oh and Geraldine McQueen is a good match for you laughingdevilboy. Who is laughing now? Ha ha ha!
Don't be a dick, Eclipse vs Petrelli. Anyway, a few things to consider: the writers said Arthur used "the Haitian's power", implying it was taken from the Haitian. Since he still has his power (obviously), Arthur didn't take it from him, and we have yet to see anyone else besides the Haitian and Anna with this ability. Since Arthur presumably has only stolen powers from a select few people, it would seem obvious that he took this power from Peter (who in turn absorbed it from the Haitian). --Ricard Desi (t,c) 16:35, 24 December 2008 (EST)
    • Well Stevehim, your memory out-recalled mine. :P Linderman DOES say in Villains to Angela something along the lines of "All the times he's forced thoughts into your head, erased your memories..." I guess they can't make any of this too easy, eh? Haha. I guess i'm not sure what to do; on one hand we know Peter has mimicked telepathy, and not mental manipulation as far as we know. On the other hand, "making people forget" is more often associated with MM than telepathy, but telepathy is said by Linderman to do it as well. UNLESS, Linderman was referring to MM (in which case Arthur got it from someone else, prior to Peter, which doesn't help any). Agh. Merry Christmas xP GabrielPetrelli 20:30, 24 December 2008 (EST)
      • Thanks for checking it out.  :) I actually didn't remember it, but was just going based off of what we have on other pages. Happy holidays!  :) --Stevehim 07:14, 25 December 2008 (EST)

Please re-merge Anna's ability to this page

Why was Anna moved to lobotomization without discussion on this page? Isn't that against procedure? Don't Anna and the Haitian have the same base ability to turn people into zombies? Isn't that the same reason why we have together Niki's and Knox's ability, and why we just merged the Future Agent's ability and electric manipulation?--MiamiVolts (talk) 21:21, 24 December 2008 (EST)

  • The Haitian can also knock people out, block abilities, and erase memories. I suppose Anna can erase memories since she's lobotomizing them. Can she do the rest? Is there any evidence that they have the same abilities? Knox's and Niki's abilities are both enhanced forms of strength (though that's being discussed at talk:enhanced strength). The future agent's ability and Elle's ability have both been called the same thing. I don't follow the iStory religiously--has Anna's ability ever been called anything, or have any other descriptions been given? I don't think that the Haitian's ability has ever been referred to as a lobotomy. Since we ultimately don't know that they're the same ability, we shouldn't assume they are just because they're similar. If we find out more about Anna's ability, we can merge the two back. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 21:44, 24 December 2008 (EST)
    • She refers to it is "effectively lobotomizing" them. That's 1) a description, and 2) a non-expert's description. --Ricard Desi (t,c) 21:49, 24 December 2008 (EST)
      • The "Effectively" in my opinion makes a huge difference here. She's not saying she lobotomizes them, she's saying she effectively lobotomizes them, meaning whatever she does to them has the same effect as a lobotomy would without actually lobotomizing, no?--Riddler 21:58, 24 December 2008 (EST)
        • I think I understand what you mean. Suresh said himself (expert) that her ability shuts down the upper brain functions. The End. Nothing else. Now if evidence comes along down the road that she can do more with her ability then we'll change it. We report what we see and read, and nothing else. If it comes to question that this couldn't possibly be an ability then read some other comics. Other heroes have done this such as Superman. Remember that hardly anything seen in the Heroes universe hasn't been seen somewhere else. --OutbackZack 22:12, 24 December 2008 (EST)
          • Shutting down brain functions isn't just the end, it's the basis for both the Haitian's and Anna's abilities. A person's power is a brain function, which is why Eric Doyle was able to turn on the laser emission ability and why Sylar could be incapacitated with a piece of glass to the skull. Also, Mohinder described the different brain functions Anna has been able to shut down so far (see below comment).--MiamiVolts (talk) 22:32, 24 December 2008 (EST)
    • In chapter 2 of Operation Bad Blood, Mohinder describes the ability, saying her ability has been known to affect and disorient sensory perception, motor commands, language skills, and even conscious thought. As to knocking people out, in an alternate ending for chapter 3 of Operation Bad Blood, Anna uses her ability on the Pinehearst contracted player and the player winds up falling asleep for three months. When the player finally wakes up, the player overhears that Pinehearst's doctors have deduced the player will remain vegetative with "zero upper brain function activity" and Priscilla orders euthanasia to be performed on the player. As to blocking abilities, the only confirmed people with abilities that have been around Anna in the iStory are Mohinder and Red Eye. Mohinder didn't want Anna to use her ability anymore, and Red Eye had conned her into helping him. I think, though, that if Anna were to shut him down completely, he wouldn't still be using his ability. Perhaps we'll get confirmation on that next week, but since the base ability is the same I think they should be recombined. The Future Agent's ability wasn't ever called electric manipulation and he levitates, yet we are now linking his ability with Elle's, so I think that speaks to the fact that the abilities don't have to be exactly the same as long as they perform the same function. Anna can manipulate minds and so can the Haitian, thus they both have forms of mental manipulation.--MiamiVolts (talk) 22:22, 24 December 2008 (EST)
      • I don't think a "base ability" is enough to say that two people have the same ability. Hiro and Rachel Mills can both teleport. Elle and the dying patient both have abilities that center around electricity. Maury and Candice can both create illusions. Adam and Linderman can both heal. Matt and Sue Landers can both detect lies. Isaac and Angela can both predict the future. Arthur and Linda Tavara can both steal the abilities of others. Sylar and Peter both absorb the abilities of others. But none of these pairs have been confirmed to have the same power. It's very possible that Anna has the same power as the Haitian--that would make perfect sense. But until it's confirmed, we shouldn't say that they do. (We can discuss the name of Anna's ability at talk:lobotomization.) Hopefully we'll find out in the last graphic novel of the year. :) -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 01:04, 25 December 2008 (EST)
      • I agree with RGS, While they both can perform similar things, they go about it different. The Haitian in the GNs said he scraped them completely clean and their minds were wiped, whereas in Red Eye they remembered they had guns. The only way to make people remember things after the Haitian is done with them is to Heal them or if they have Rapid Cell Regeneration. If people really want a merger I suggest grouping the two as Mental Manipulation, and creating sub pages for the haitians ability to wipe things from the mind and anna's ability to just cut off access to that part of the brain. Dracomaster4 20:43, 25 December 2008 (EST)
        • I'm still in favor of a re-merge as well, Dracomaster. Regarding your example, Dracomaster, the Kill Squad only went for their guns after Red Eye enacted his ability on them too, so it's unknown as to whether Anna's ability didn't have full effect or whether Red Eye's ability caused them to remember. In reality, we don't know how either the Haitian or Anna goes about their ability, we just know the effects of their abilities thus far. The rest of your argument has already been discussed on the talk page for Anna's ability.--MiamiVolts (talk) 21:08, 25 December 2008 (EST)

Rename Mental manipulation to be less 'mentally' generic and specific to the Haitians ability

Mental manipulation is now too generic of a name to use for the Haitian, because Anna, and even Matt and Maury to a lesser extent, all do types of mental manipulation. The Haitian manipulates memory to both erase memories, and to prevent specials from being able to access their ability. Memory manipulation as a new name, is more specific to what he does, and differentiates his form of Mental manipulation from Anna and prospective future psionic specials. --HiroDynoSlayer (talk) 01/15/2009 11:27 (EST)

  • I don't like that name, it implies that he can create or alter memories, not only erase them, the only non-erasing memory thing he has ever done was make his father remember their happy times. I also don't get how memory manipulation links to power supression. Does he make people forget how to use their abilities? Does he block access to the memory of how to control an ability? Still a bit of an umbrella term. Intuitive Empath - Talk - Contributions 12:20, 15 January 2009 (EST)
    • I agree, I'm not a fan of the name "memory manipulation". By definition, one would assume he can manipulate memories. All he can do is delete them. At most, he can select which memories to erase. He can't manipulate them in any other way. Additionally, it ignores one of the bigger aspects of his ability, which is the ability to block others' abilities. I'm not sure what power blocking has to do with memory manipulation. The Haitian can also knock people out by touching their heads--again, I don't know if that has anything to do with manipulating memories.

      Yes, Anna can also manipulate mental functions. She described it as lobotomizing. So can many others, including Eric Doyle, Guillame, and Candice, to name just a few. But that doesn't mean the Haitian's ability name needs to change, just that we need to be clear on what his power allows him to do. We wouldn't think about renaming illusion just because others can cast illusions, like Maury and Matt. We wouldn't rename super speed just because others are capable of running at super speeds, like Santiago. We wouldn't rename space-time manipulation just because others can have traveled through time (like Daphne) or space (like Rachel). I don't think we need to rename the Haitian's ability just because others can manipulate mental functions. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 17:23, 15 January 2009 (EST)

      • Just to be clear, Anna never described her ability just as 'lobotomizing'. Her words in the graphic novel Red Eye, Part 1 were that Ricardo discovered she could "effectively lobotomize" the people around her. That's not the same as saying she lobotomizes people as using "effectively" means that her ability can have the same effect as a lobotomy, not that that is what she does. Also, the Haitian's actions zombifying his village was to effectively lobotomize them. The only differences between the Haitian's ability and Anna is that Anna hasn't shown that she can selectively erase memories yet, or that she can block multiple abilities at once. We don't know that the Haitian's and Anna's abilities are different, but Ryan is trying to say we don't know that they are the same either. Though I would argue that they are similar enough to be grouped together like the electric agent that levitates and the others with electric manipulation.--MiamiVolts (talk) 17:48, 15 January 2009 (EST)
        • Maybe my suggestion isn't the best fit; however we've grown enough varied 'mental manipulation' abilities from other characers (as you list above), that Mental manipulation is really too generic and vague of a title for the ole Haitian. Why should other folks have specific names regarding their powers, and he has an extremely generic one that can apply to 6 other people at face value? That's my concern. I just think it's time to hone his abilities name down a bit to be more specific; because there are so many mental manipulators out there now. Personally, I would rather see the two(Anna and Haitian) grouped together under Mental manipulation; but if they remain separate; then we should de-genericize the name of the Haitian's power. He is no more of a mental manipulator than all of the other folks you mentioned; so he really shouldn't retain the highly generic name, IMO. --HiroDynoSlayer (talk) 01/15/2009 18:07 (EST)
          • HDS, I think a historical perspective may help you understand why 'mental manipulation' was chosen in the first place--it was cause besides what the Haitian does with memory, he could also block others' abilities and we weren't (and still aren't) certain how the Haitian accomplishes that. However, we were presented with Mohinder's/Chandra's theories that all abilities have to do with the mind, so we called it mental manipulation. It was later presented to us that the Haitian could also reduce people to the state of zombie, if he so desired, but since the name 'mental manipulation' was so broad, it didn't need changing. Unless we get more information on how the Haitian performs his power blocking and memory deletion, or a name is given to us explicitly, I don't think we'll be able to accomplish choosing a narrower name.--MiamiVolts (talk) 18:28, 15 January 2009 (EST)
            • I just did some Haitian research. Maybe I've found the perfect alternative, to better harmonize all considerations. Why then, not move upward on the canon list, and accomplish a more specific naming of the Haitian's power in one move? Right now, it is at level 5 canon(description). We could move up to a level 2 canon(GN) and narrow the name, by saying the Haitian has the power of Nullification. (avoid the pitfall from the earlier discussion above that focused on a two-part name of "ability nullification", and just go with Nullification, since he aptly nullifies powers and memories.) He is attributed that term in Kill Squad, and that verb can equally describe his ability 1) to nullify memories, and 2) to nullify powers. That would accurate describe both aspects of the Haitian's ability, it would more narrowly define it, and it would make it a level 2 canon name. --HiroDynoSlayer (talk) 01/15/2009 20:38 (EST)
              • I think what you are referring to is the quote where they say to call in the Haitian, to call in a "nullifier"? That's still a descriptive level 5 name, though it would come from a level 2 source. I personally don't prefer one name over the other, but I'm not opposed to that change.--MiamiVolts (talk) 21:30, 15 January 2009 (EST)
                • I don't see a problem with calling it "nullification". I actually quite like it. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 21:39, 15 January 2009 (EST)
                  • You'll have to try harder to convince me, nullification does work for powers, but it doesn't describe well the erasing of memories, to nullify is to negate, to cancel, and that's not the same thing as erase. Plus, nullification isn't a specific enough term, even when put with mental manipulation, I think mm is more accurate, cause both powers and memories are related to mind. Mm is a broad term, but nullification is even more, cause nothing indicates what it nullifies, and there's also the time when the Haitian made Guillame remember their good times together, that doesn't go well with nullification. I think that much like AP, the nullification mention by the Kill Squad is much like SLW woman telling Santiago about his ability, she mentions the probability aspect, but not the super speed one. Intuitive Empath - Talk - Contributions 11:21, 16 January 2009 (EST)
                    • OK, here goes me trying harder....There isn't a perfect term, or we'd have one by now. (hehe) Initially, Mental manipulation worked fine for the Haitian, but since so many more specials have come along who also do many other varied forms of Mental manipulation, then it isn't a good fit anylonger. He has that name, because he was pretty much the first special to come along messing around inside peoples heads outside of Parkman who originally fit nice and neat in the already common Telepathy name. Nullification can very easily apply to erasing memories. If I said I was going to nullify the memories of your trip to Alaska last year, noone reading that would have any difficulty understanding that I removed your memories of the Alaska trip. Plus, you can handle the Haitians singlet example of producing 'good memories' with Guillame in a note or explanative phrase...it's not like that is the main or even secondary aspect of the Haitian's nullification ability; he's done that trick once, and he nullifies powers and he nullifies memories just about every time he has appeared in the show spanning 3 seasons. In consideration of all of the other specials who do various forms of Mental manipulation, this power name should be changed to Nullificiation which is similarly accurate, much more specific and unique to the Haitian's abilities, and will catch on quickly and easily with anyone familiar with the show and the Haitian. Mental manipulation just continues to create confusion as to why other mental manipulators aren't classified within its list. --HiroDynoSlayer (talk) 01/16/2009 12:35 (EST)
                      • Why not "mental nullification"? Seems better to me.--Referos 16:49, 3 February 2009 (EST)
          • Until we get something definitive, we should stick with mental manipulation. Other evolved humans "mentally manipulating" people has been an issue for a few years now, and if it wasn't sufficient to alter the name in all that time, it shouldn't really be so now, imho. Additionally, 'memory nullification' is a bit of an awkward phrase, and since we've seen people get their memories back after the Haitian uses his ability, that would just make for more awkwardness in describing (un-nullifying?) --Stevehim 17:09, 3 February 2009 (EST)
  • I don't mind "Mental Nullification", also this can account for the unnullifying effects of his ability. If you can cancel something out, then hypothetically you can restore it. Whether the Haitian actually has access to this ability or not is still unknown. But this term fits all aspects of his ability, including memory loss and/or manipulation.--Steelymcbeam 03:07, 5 February 2009 (EST)
    • Nullification doesn't really apply to his ability to knock people out with a touch, unless we're saying he's nullifying their consciousness, which is stretching the term a bit far, imo. --Stevehim 06:48, 5 February 2009 (EST)

Bump for discussion.--Steely McBeam - (talk) 07:56, 8 March 2009 (EDT)

  • Mental Nullification makes sense. He can effect people mentally (i.e. erase their memories) and nullify their ability --Peter 17:03, 16 March 2009 (EDT)

Useless against the Rule of Ted?

Let's see which abilities the Haitian seemingly couldn't block. These are: flight, invisibility, induced radioactivity. The Rule of Ted is applied to every of these. Maybe this is the pattern which defines the powers the Haitian cannot nullify? Altes 13:25, 20 February 2009

  • Actually he never tried to block flight or induced radioactivity, so this argument has little evidence. As for invisibility it's still unknown whether he could block it, IMO they used heat-sensitive goggles due to the distance between them. Blocking his invisibility would really ruin a sneak attack, since he would realize. --Steely McBeam - (talk) 07:55, 8 March 2009 (EDT)
    • With the last statement I don't agree, since invisible people can see themselves and each other, they wouldn't notice their ability was negated. Especially in the dark, when it's difficult to see, for example, reflections in a mirror. --Altes 05:41, 5 April 2009 (EDT)
      • Good point, however it's a known fact that the Haitian can only block abilities within a certain radius(area, whatever), it's a wee bit pointless stumbling around hoping that he would eventually negate invisibility and find them so in come the heat-sensitive goggles. Hopefully that makes sense.--Steely McBeam - (talk) 08:11, 5 April 2009 (EDT)
        • In Volume Three that radius was quite wide, Daphne and Hiro couldn't use their powers while the Haitian was nowhere to be seen. -- Altes 04:42, 16 July 2009 (EDT)

Where was it confirmed that the Haitian cannot supress flight? On the main article, it says that the Haitian is unable and unwilling to supress flight. Unwilling, maybe, but again, where was it confirmed that he was unable to?--ERROR 16:57, 8 June 2009 (EDT)

Nathan flew away from him and Noah when they were to bag and tag him, so either he couldn't block Nathan's flight, or was instructed not to do so, as he was following Angela's orders, which outrank Noah's. Intuitive Empath - Talk - Contributions 17:18, 8 June 2009 (EDT)

I realize that. But we're listing him as being unable AND unwilling to supress flight. It's either one or the other.

I think I'm going to change it. It's speculative to say one or the other (Or both, as we already do.).--ERROR 10:57, 11 June 2009 (EDT)

Useless against the Rule of Ted... Think the Haitian could suppress that?--ERROR 19:30, 17 June 2009 (EDT)

In Hiros where Nathan flies away from Noah and The Haitain he was running away and did not fly, it was only when he was cornered did he fly, why didn't fly before then and not after when he was face to face with Noah and The Haitain{user 50000JH}

Because that's when he realized he had no way out other than up. Intuitive Empath - Talk - Contributions 18:10, 19 June 2009 (EDT)

When Peter was invisible and about to get trasered The Haitain did not block Peter other ability then{50000JH}

They had the thermal glasses, plus if they noticed they weren't invisible they'd suspect something, not blocking them would allow them to go there unnoticed. Intuitive Empath - Talk - Contributions 16:04, 20 June 2009 (EDT)

On the page example of immunity where it shows the rule of ted it has space-time manipulation and super speed as under the rule of ted but the Haitain is mangered to block these powers and these powers don't show up in lack of immunity such as telepath. 50000JH

  • To me, the "rule of Ted" means that a person cannot use his powers against himself. Ted cannot irradiate himself. Meredith cannot burn herself. Linderman cannot heal himself. We don't know if the Haitian can block his powers or erase his memories...though it seems unlikely that he can. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 21:05, 30 August 2009 (EDT)

I'm sorry, but...

Mental manipulation sounds a little off to me. It makes it seem like he can alter a person's mind. Here's a suggestion (that's probably not going to go far). Mental Suppression? Or memory elimination? Something along those lines. --Spexile 19:36, 24 April 2009 (EDT)

  • Mental manipulation accounts for both effects of his ability, that's why it's used. Mental suppression implies he just suppresses memories instead of erasing them, and memory elimination doesn't account for the power negating effect. You're going to make an effort in vain there. Intuitive Empath - Talk - Contributions 20:09, 24 April 2009 (EDT)

He DOES manipulate minds. He can manipulate the parts of the mind that govern memories and abilities.

I known, speculation, but still.--ERROR 16:54, 8 June 2009 (EDT)

I think the ability should be Nullification as he does both to mind and abilities{50000JH}

Nullification does describe both parts of the ability but again its to vauge. --[User:Tsmarg|Tsmarg]]

Mental Nullification

this describes how he erases memories and suppresses abilities. --Tsmarg

  • That doesn't explain how he knocks people out. -- Altes 13:19, 21 June 2009 (EDT)
    • Oh please, this is one name we've managed to name and it has worked fine, there's no need to change it, if we do, people will probably not be able to choose a single name and this will become "The Haitian's ability". Intuitive Empath - Talk - Contributions 14:03, 21 June 2009 (EDT)
      • Um, I'm sorry but I must me new to the concept of wiki. I always thought the point of this was to improve it over time, not stick with the status quo for the next million years. We may have a name that works fine, but why can we not improve or refine it? Mental Nullification covers what the Kill Squad called him, a nullifier, and covers every aspect of his ability. He knocks people out by nullifying the cognitive area of the brain. - BlackWidower 13:42, 7 July 2009 (EDT)
        • Its not really to improve what we have, but to hold information on the selected topic of the wiki (topic is heroes). I And personally, I am fine with the name of the power.--Catalyst · Talk · HL 13:50, 7 July 2009 (EDT)
          • this name does explain how he knocks people out; he nullifies the part of their mind which controls their conscience mind -- Tsmarg
            • Nullifies minds? 0_0 It's almost as if he destroys them completely, it's not the case. -- Altes 04:40, 16 July 2009 (EDT)
          • But he does manipulate the mental part of the body (the mind).--Catalyst · Talk · HL 15:05, 15 July 2009 (EDT)

Split?

I know you're all goin to jump down my throat over this one but I still think of this as two separate abilities;

The ability to block powers and the ability to erase memories. They're two separate things. Does anyone else agree?

  • *telekinetically jumps the mysterious stranger's throat down* The Haitian has the ability to block different brain functions, which results in memory wipe and abilities negation. You could also say Hiro had two different powers: to teleport and to manipulate time, but it's not true. -- Altes 11:52, 2 July 2009 (EDT)

Two

People with this ability can block people from using their powers. What if the Haitian met another person with the same power. Could the Haitian and the other person block each other from using their powers? But then they couldn't do that, because they are both powerless. Any thoughts on this?--Catalyst · Talk · HL 18:16, 20 July 2009 (EDT)

  • As soon as my brains stops hurting, I'll give you an answer... Seriously, I would guess it would kinda be like when Doyle and Sylar faced off in Dual, where they just kinda struggle to block each other until one gives out. --Yamawhata? 18:29, 20 July 2009 (EDT)
    • Or nothing could happen, people with this ability could be immune to it. Intuitive Empath - Talk - Contributions 18:53, 20 July 2009 (EDT)
      • They aren't. - Josh (talk/contribs) 21:19, 20 July 2009 (EDT)
        • I dont think Arthur has this power.--Catalyst · Talk · HL 21:27, 20 July 2009 (EDT)
          • According to BTE, he does... Besides, I can't give a better explanation why Hiro didn't teleport away in Our Father when Arthur telekinetically pulled him and stole his power and the catalyst. -- Altes 01:08, 21 July 2009 (EDT)
            • Maybe Arthur was too powerful for him to do anything, or Hiro was in shock.--Catalyst · Talk · HL 01:10, 21 July 2009 (EDT)

Arthur

Arthur could have this power natuarly, we don't know that we got it from an unknown source, we knew before he died he had telepathy and that we know memories can be wiped, Matt which done to Sylar, although he said a common. 50000JH

I think it is telepathy not mental manipulation that he's got mind wiping can be done by telepath and he must of learn different ways, the two are smiliar apart from we haven't seen someone with telepath block a power. Only person I will believe it he got the same power as the haitain is Tim Kring. 50000JH

  • It was stated by BTE that he used mental manipulation on Hiro, let me search for a link AltesUTC CH
    • Here's the quote, "Arthur was in the process of using the Haitian’s ability to mind-wipe all the things Hiro learned from his spirit walk in the “Villains” episode", and the link. AltesUTC CH
      • That's right. Arthur used his only natural ability, power absorption, to take the Haitian's ability from Peter. He then used the Haitian's ability on Hiro. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 15:33, 20 August 2009 (EDT)
        • Now that you say that, why does it say in Arthur's page that the source for this ability is unknown? That's contradicting. Intuitive Empath - Talk - Contributions 16:55, 20 August 2009 (EDT)
          • Because that's one of those silly examples where we all know what the right answer is, but because it's unconfirmed, that's the way it needs to read on the actual page. It's true, the source for the ability is officially unknown. But common sense says that he got it from Peter. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 21:45, 20 August 2009 (EDT)
            • should it be unknown source possible Peter/Peter?50000JH

Haitain seems to be the stronger between arthur blocking abilities is it becuse has use it more andknow how to access it easy and experience or that arthur has too many abilities and to channel an unactive abilities to get the best use out of them. 50000JH

Mental suppression

it describes accurately how he suppresses memories, abilities, and how he knocks people out. it permanently suppresses memories; temporarily nullifies abilities, and suppresses the consciousness mind, knocking the person out. this name describes his ability perfectly. --Tsmarg

  • I still think we should leave the name alone. As I said somehwere above, the Haitian manipulates the mental part of the body. I personally think it works as is.--Catalyst · Talk · HL 11:21, 23 August 2009 (EDT)
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