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Talk:Precognitive dreaming/Archive 1

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WARNING: Talk:Precognitive dreaming/Archive 1 is an archive of past messages. New messages should be added to Talk:Precognitive dreaming.

Distinction

Knowing what we now know about Angela's power, is it really a separate power from Precognition? It does the same thing, albeit with a bit less precision and in a different medium, but its still basically the power to predict the future. --Ted C 20:59, 23 September 2008 (EDT)

  • Still agree. My argument is down below. --Riddler 23:07, 23 September 2008 (EDT)
    • Isaac's precognition is through painting. This power manifests through dreams. --Hero!(talk)(contribs) 23:29, 23 September 2008 (EDT)
      • They're still both Precognition, the only difference is how they see it. Like I said below, we don't have a separate article for Teleportation, and Manuel Garcia's version is different than Hiro's.
        • It's also entirely possible that Angela's ability lets her see into the past. --Hero!(talk)(contribs) 23:39, 23 September 2008 (EDT)
          • We haven't actually witnessed Angela having a dream of a past event, so that's pure speculation that could just as easily have applied to Isaac. After all, Isaac could apparently paint the present, since he finished his picture of Peter showing up in his studio just as Peter arrived there. --Ted C 14:40, 24 September 2008 (EDT)
          • Same applies to Isaac. Though, in a technical sense, it was the future that he painted because it was Hiro's future, he did indeed paint the past. --Riddler 23:40, 23 September 2008 (EDT)
            • I think they're differents powers, because Angela can move and interact with the dreams. Angela saw herself in the dream of Level 5, and Peter talk with Charles in how to stop a exploding man.
              • What does that mean? She basically got a glimpse of the future, which is what Isaac's paintings always gave. --Ted C 14:40, 24 September 2008 (EDT)
  • I'm with Riddler on this. As he pointed out, are we going to start a new power page every time someone comes up with a new way to predict future events ("Precognitive painting", "Precognitive dreaming", "Precognitive ice sculpture", etc.)? The important element of this power is the foresight, not the format of its expression. --Ted C 14:40, 24 September 2008 (EDT)
    • How come no one seems to want to discuss this? --Riddler 20:49, 24 September 2008 (EDT)
    • Just make the edit. The point is clearly a valid one, and no one has a solid argument refuting it. Darmenos 21:15, 9 October 2008 (EDT)
  • Indeed. I don't know why PD has a separate page. Can someone please make some valid points? --Litox 21:03, 17 October 2008 (EDT)

Peter's dreams

We should probably move the bulk of Peter's dreams to this page; in fact, we might even think about just making Peter's dreams into a redirect to this page. All we would really lose it the chronological history, which would be replaced by a pictorial history of examples with cites. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 02:15, 23 September 2008 (EDT)

  • I second the redirect idea, but ask that the page not be deleted before it becomes a redirect so that the history can be preserved.--MiamiVolts (talk) 02:19, 23 September 2008 (EDT)
    • If it's a redirect, it won't be deleted. The history remains intact. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 02:28, 23 September 2008 (EDT)

Charles Deveaux HTSAEM dream sequence

Should it be cited here? Since it was "past-tense" dreaming and not "future-tense" dreaming, should it effect the name of the power? --HiroDynoSlayer (talk) 09/23/2008 07:52 (EST)

  • That dream sequence was an example of postcognition, the ability to see the past.--Elemental Manipulator [ U | T | C ] - When in doubt, ask BTE 04:50, 19 December 2008 (EST)

Name

I'm hoping for "Premonition" for a few reasons. One, if this is precognitive dreaming then Issac's power should be called precognitive painting. Two, the two powers are different in that Issac and Usutu can create images with exact details, while Angela and Peter see things in symbolic ways. --Piemanmoo 11:19, 23 September 2008 (EDT)

  • I'm torn. I like "premonition" because it hints that the vision isn't exact. I don't like it for two reasons though--anybody can have a premonition. I've always understood "premonition" to mean a feeling about something that is going to happen. But ultimately, it doesn't address the dreaming aspect (even Angela mentioned dreams). -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 11:29, 23 September 2008 (EDT)
    • But shouldn't we also avoid a name that infers 'future-only', because of the past-tense dream sequence Peter had with Charles in HTSAEM? --HiroDynoSlayer (talk) 09/23/2008 12:20 (EST)
    • Well we don't know if the interaction with Charles was due to Angela's ability or something else, possibly another ability held by charles. Who knows? --Piemanmoo 13:41, 23 September 2008 (EDT)
      • I'm going to have to agree with pieman. We could just always change it to Spontaneous Premonitions. Jason Garrick 15:47, 23 September 2008 (EDT)
        • But this sounds like choosing to side with speculation. Charles doesn't have a confirmed power. Anything named or not named based on him having a power is speculative. At this point until prooven otherwise, we can only say that Peter and Angela have 'dream-cog' powers, therefore the past-visit to Charles was a result of Angela/or Peter 'dream-cog' not Charles. My point is because of that 'visit'; and because Charles doesn't have a confirmed power; we can't attibute anything to him; which leaves us with an example of Angela/Peter having a 'past 'dream-cog'; not a future one. "Precognitive" dreaming presumes dreaming of future events. If we dropped the 'pre'; and just called it 'Cognitive Dreaming' then we would remove the speculation that it can only be future-tense dreaming. --HiroDynoSlayer (talk) 09/23/2008 15:56 (EST)
          • I personally think this should go under Precognition, because that's exactly what it is. Favoring one "precognition" over another would be ridiculous, so if this is to have it's own article, the other one should be "Precognitive Painting", as someone said before. Precognition is seeing future events; Angela as well as Isaac, Peter, and Sylar, saw future events. How they show it is just their personal detail. Similar to this is how we don't have a separate article for Teleportation, though Manuel Garcia's teleportation is different than Hiro's. Just my two cents though.--Riddler 20:32, 23 September 2008 (EDT)
            • I'm fine with the current name as it shows what we know about the ability thus far. We don't know whether or not Charles had the same ability so we have to table that discussion for now. That said, I would rather just drop the pre- as HDS suggested than use premonition.--MiamiVolts (talk) 20:37, 23 September 2008 (EDT)
        • I'm afraid there's one tiny flaw in that logic, HDS. Just because we dont know for 100% certain that charles has an ability, that doesn't mean that we can be safely sure that the dream was caused by angela's power. It could have been time travel or something entirely else for all we know. We shouldn't even look at the HTSAEM scene along with the rest of peter's dreams because we dont known exactly what caused it. Otherwise we're making a false assumption, namely that if charles didnt cause it, then the only possibility was that angela had to have. We dont know if it was Charles or Angela or Sanjog or Mr. Muggles that caused that dream sequence. So instead of picking the one that seems the most likely, we should just leave it apart from the other dreams.--Piemanmoo 03:04, 24 September 2008 (EDT)
          • OK, I see your point. But even at that, 'Pre-Cognative dreaming' still assumes only a future direction. Why not be safe, and just call it 'Cognitive dreaming'? That way, if they do end up dreaming both ways in time in future epis; we don't have to go back and change alot of stuff; since all of this power's footprint right now is pretty small? --HiroDynoSlayer (talk) 09/24/2008 14:44 (EST)
            • I don't know if you can just drop the "pre" and change the term to include past and present. I don't know if "cognitive" makes sense in the context of "cognitive dreaming". Although precognition isn't often used to describe events of the past, it is plausible that precognition does cover instances where you're finding out about an experience before you had a chance to experience it yourself (which since it's in the past wouldn't actually happen). In any event, I'd like to see an Assignment Tracker entry give us some resolution to this. (Admin 14:55, 24 September 2008 (EDT))
              • Mr. Kring said in an interview: "But he's had dreams before, and they've had premonition qualities to them." Maybe we should just call it premonition until we have an in-universe reference to this power's name?--Referos 17:23, 24 September 2008 (EDT)
                • Well, a description from Kring himself is about as canon as you can get, other than being named outright in the assignment tracker. If anyone still feels strongly enough for the other name, feel free to change it back. --Piemanmoo 00:19, 25 September 2008 (EDT)
                  • An interview is not canon at all. See the help:naming conventions. In the secondary source we have, but he doesn't say that it's premonition, he said the dreams have premonition qualities. In other words, the fact that they're based on dreams should say something. However, Angela (in a canon-based source, an episode), said that she saw the future in a dream. Precognition, as defined by canon sources, is the ability to see into the future. This would lead me to say the name should be "Precognitive dreaming".--Bob (talk) 00:49, 25 September 2008 (EDT)
                      • Or simpler, "Precognition." Why isn't anybody acknowledging these arguments by me and Ted? You only further prove our arguments valid by using Precognition as your basis for naming this one.--Riddler 01:06, 25 September 2008 (EDT)
                        • I think there is a difference. Peter wasn't off making paintings until he interacted with Isaac, but he had Angela's ability before meeting him. Angela states specifically that she dreams it, whereas Isaac's eyes cloud over and he paints it. Peter could not paint/draw the future until meeting Isaac. If they were the same, then Peter should have been able to do this prior to meeting Isaac. --Bob (talk) 01:09, 25 September 2008 (EDT)
                          • Different manifestations, same result. It's just two different ways of getting information about the future, and neither one gives much more than the other. I still think that we just need sub-headings under a single Precognition page. --Ted C 15:52, 25 September 2008 (EDT)
                            • Emphasis on my agreement, also a bump to get this discussion noticed.--Riddler 16:41, 25 September 2008 (EDT)
                              • Time travel is also a way of obtaining information about the future, but I'm pretty sure it's a different power. However, I think that if we are going to call Angela's ability as "precognitive dreaming", Isaac's power should definitely be renamed to "precognitive painting". Or, yes, we could group the two under an umbrella term.--Referos 16:44, 25 September 2008 (EDT)
                          • This argument doesn't hold for much. Otherwise, telepathy and illusion are the same thing, and they're not. Healing has the same result as Claire or Adam's blood. The end result has no impact on the mechanisms of what the ability does. To say a bicycle and a car are the same is incorrect. They both get you to a destination, but in different ways. Precognition requires the medium of painting the future you saw. Precognitive dreaming does not require this. Precognition requires the user to open their eyes, which in turn clouds it over (this is based off the fact that ALL users of precognition have been alert and awake, and have opened their eyes). Precognitive dreaming is while one is asleep or unconscious. They're distinctively different. My opinion, this ability allows you to see a more figurative future, whereas precognition (such as when Isaac was seeing Claire getting chased, or when Sylar saw flashes of what was to come) allows you to literally see the future event, but the painting is the only inaccuracy. --Bob (talk) 20:49, 25 September 2008 (EDT)
                              • And I don't believe your argument helps "Precognition" much, because Precognition on it's own is the ability to SEE the future, not PAINT the future. Isaac did paint the future, but that was how he expressed it. Precognitive Painting seems almost necessary to me if we keep it Precognitive Dreaming. On top of that, saying that these are distinct enough from each other brings up the other point. We don't have a separate article for Teleportation (Manuel Garcia), and his is distinctively different from Hiro's. He CANNOT manipulate time, and he can only teleport short distances. I say if this isn't moved under Precognition, than we'd have to make the other Precognitive Painting and add an article for Teleportation.--Riddler 20:58, 25 September 2008 (EDT)
                                • You're shifting the argument. This is a discussion about this ability. My argument is that it is a different ability, yet the opposing argument is either a)they're the same, or b) the other one's named wrong. Option B needs to be discussed at the appropriate discussion page. Aside from that, this ability is not the same ability as Isaac's, correct? That's the point I'm making. This is a discussion about this article's name, and keep it as such.--Bob (talk) 00:11, 26 September 2008 (EDT)
                                  • I'm keeping my argument the same as I had it from the beginning. Teleportation doesn't have it's own page, and it's distinct enough to have one. That's your argument for this, it's distinct enough to be different. But to argue your point, I mentioned that "Precognition" is not equal to "Painting the Future." Someone above said that this must be named Precognitive Dreaming because "Precognition's definition is to see the future. (Paraphrased.) So, my point is: It's an ability named for an another ability, which seems redundant. Both abilities "See the future", and both SHOULD have "Precognition", but neither ability should have the title over the other. They should either be BOTH Precognition with notes explaining the distinction (like Teleporting in Time/Space Manipulation) OR Precognition should be named Precognitive Dreaming so that each ability is given fair treatment (even further this keeps it at the same level as the 'Enhanced Strength/Hearing/Speed' abilities.) The ONLY other option would be to rename this entirely to Premonition or Premonitory Dreaming, which I'm not a fan of, but it also works.--Riddler 17:13, 26 September 2008 (EDT)
                                    • Aaaaaand now that Knox's ability is explained on the Assignment Tracker Map, that argument applies. His power is also VERY distinct from Jessica's, yet they're under the same name.--Riddler 17:35, 26 September 2008 (EDT)
                            • Since we have Kring's comment about premonitions and Angela's statement about dreams, why don't we call it "premonitory dreaming". I don't see why we must use "precognitive".--Referos 20:53, 25 September 2008 (EDT)
  • Once it's shown on the show, we're gonna have another conflicting argument here. Knox's ability/Jessica's ability. Knox's ability has been named "Enhanced strength" by the assignment tracker. Jessica's has been named as such for common name/what was said in the show (Super Strength.) We'd have to keep the names, since that's what is said in the show/other canon sources, but they're distinctly different in that Knox gets his power from emotions and Jessica is naturally strong. Different abilities, same name.--Riddler 23:24, 25 September 2008 (EDT)
  • My 2 cents: This Ability and Isaac's are similar, yet different enough to warrant separate pages. They accomplish the same thing, more or less, however the way the are used/manefest themselves is drasticaly different:
    Angela and Peter were, and need to be, unconscious for this ability to work. They then remember what was in the vision after waking. The imagery in the dreams (that word needs to be part of this ability's name) isn't entirely accurate to the events that unfold.
    Issac, Sylar, and Peter when using the other ability see the future on a surface, go into a trance, paint/draw images, exit the trance, and then have to interpret the results.
    Regardless, the manifestation warrants different pages. I could care less what the names are. Precognitive dreaming is the most accessible name, so unless Angela calls her ability something different, we should go with that. --SacValleyDweller (talk) 19:02, 27 September 2008 (EDT)
    • Well put. Thanks.--Bob (talk) 19:05, 27 September 2008 (EDT)
      • Do we agree that both are Precognition, though? I'm fine with the articles being separate so long as one ability doesn't take precedent over the other. Like I said, I do agree this is Precognition, but the other should be renamed if this is specified as "Dreaming." That, or go with the Premonition names (which, according to Referos, Tim Kring noted). The latter makes it so Precognition can keep it's name and still be fair.--Riddler 22:58, 27 September 2008 (EDT)
        • I sort of feel like Precognition should be precognitive painting, since there's no evidence to suggest that the ability can be used without painting. However, Isaac and Peter made sketches as well, and the description of the ability's limits is explicitly stated in the article. So, I really don't see the need to rename precog. I don't like premonition at all, but "premonitory dreaming" would make sense if it's insisted upon removing "precognitive". I don't like premonition because it has the underlying emphasis on "warning" or something "dark", which speculates about the ability. I like precognitive dreaming for this ability, and keeping precognition for Isaac's ability since he's referred to as a precog.--Bob (talk) 23:14, 27 September 2008 (EDT)
          • Either "precognition" or "precognitive painting" work for me for Isaac's ability. Either "precognitive dreaming" or "premonitory dreaming" work for me for Angela's ability. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 23:33, 27 September 2008 (EDT)
            • Sorry to pull you into this, Admin, but your quote applies here. Quoting Admin: "What Ryan is saying, and I definitely concur, is that the powers are actually not very different. They're small differences in exactly how the power manifests that do not necessarily warrant separate articles but simply an explanation on a single ability page explaining how they each use and activate their power differently. Flint and Meredith are both pyrokinetic, but we don't split the abilities out just because his flames are blue and hers are orange. They're minor differences and are best documented with a single page." - That said, I re-emphasize that the two pages should be combined here.--Riddler 17:04, 30 September 2008 (EDT)
  • I have to agree. If we're not splitting Knox/Niki, I don't see how this should be split, as there is even less difference between these abilities than the Enhanced strength ones. And the arguments made over there certainly apply here...different ways to access the same ability. As for the idea that they are distinctly different because one requires painting and having ones eyes open, that's not entirely true, as we see the precognitive visions flash through Sylar's eyes twice (and one of them contained the past, so we can't even cite that as a difference), and there's also the comic to consider. I would be in favor of either splitting or not, as long as it was consistent with the other powers (specifically - Niki/Knox). Is there any difference at all in their powers other than one needing to be asleep and the other needing to paint/draw (putting aside Sylar's eye flashes)? Stevehim 20:50, 3 October 2008 (EDT)
  • Hmm, Sylar's profile in the Assignment Tracker explicitly calls this ability "precognition", so we cannot rename Isaac's/Usutu's ability to "precognitive painting". What do we do now? We certainly don't have a consensus.--Referos 20:27, 5 October 2008 (EDT)
    • Irrelevant. It also says "Radioactivity" and "The ability to Melt and Freeze items" - It doesn't say "Induced Radioactivity", "Melting", or "Freezing."--Riddler 20:40, 5 October 2008 (EDT)
      • Ok, so Usutu gave Matt his ability, but Matt dreamt the future instead of painting it. I think precognitive painting and dreaming should be merged now.--Referos 12:39, 7 October 2008 (EDT)

I was looking on the wikipedia article for Angela Petrelli and it listed her power as Enhanced dreaming, resulting in: Precognitive dreaming, Postcognitive dreaming and Dream manipulation. The article also says that 'Further demonstrations of her ability have shown that it goes beyond merely seeing the future, as Peter uses it at one point to visit the past, and Angela uses it to enter Sylar's dreams'. BTE Week 6 is the reference. Now I know that wikipedia holds absolutely no canon here but it's not a bad name and is true, as we all know her ability is definitely more than just Precognitive dreaming. Thoughts?--Elemental Manipulator [ U | T | C ] - When in doubt, ask BTE 04:47, 19 December 2008 (EST)

User:Heroe/Precognitive dreaming

That is all. --Hero!(talk)(contribs) 22:31, 23 September 2008 (EDT)

  • Did you dream about this page or did you paint it? ;) --Piemanmoo 00:19, 25 September 2008 (EDT)

Final Scene of Volume 2

In (The Second Coming), Angela mentions that she dreamed Future Peter would come and what he'd do. Was the scene wherein she watches Nathan's shooting on TV and talking on the phone (presumably to the assailant) in actuality said dream?--Paronine 17:56, 25 September 2008 (EDT)

Consensus Check

Well not many people are contributing to the discussion, let's see if anyone is lurking. Read the above arguments before deciding unless you've already got a mindset.

Precognitive Dreaming

  • --Skywalkerrbf 12:59, 27 September 2008 (EDT)
  • --Bob (talk) 15:33, 27 September 2008 (EDT)
  • --SacValleyDweller (talk) 19:04, 27 September 2008 (EDT)
  • --MiamiVolts (talk) 00:07, 28 September 2008 (EDT) (based on current evidence; if it turns out the ability can also see the past, we should change it to psychic dreaming, but thus far there's no concrete evidence of that)
  • --Super-Hiro 16:23, 28 September 2008 (EDT) I know I'm new, but I thought I'd just say what I thought too. I agree with what MiamiVolts just said above, and also, I like the suggestion that if this is to be "Precongitive Dreaming," then Precognition should really become, "Precognitive Painting," or something like that.
  • --SPARTAN-077 08:51, 30 September 2008 (EDT)
  • --Matchu 16:42, 10 October 2008 (EDT)
  • --Citizen 16:55, 10 October 2008 (EDT)
  • --DismantleRepair 20:33, 14 October 2008 (EDT) Based on the latest episode, it is better to keep separate, at least for logistical purposes. Angela's dreams are clearly more symbolic than the more concrete examples of precognition displayed by Isaac, Matt, and Peter (when painting).
  • --FlamingTomDude 12:39, 5 November 2008 (EDT)

Precognition (combine articles)

Premonition

  • --Piemanmoo 18:04, 28 September 2008 (EDT)
  • --This is actually the name of the power!!! And precognition as far as we know as been exact events. The premonitions are something Peter or Angela need to interpret. Jason Garrick 23:11, 30 September 2008 (EDT)
  • --HiroDynoSlayer (talk) 10/10/2008 12:45 (EST)
  • --The Ur-Noob18:10, 10 December 2008 (EST)

Premonitory Dreaming

  • --Referos 13:08, 27 September 2008 (EDT) (if the articles are not combined)

Other

  • --Anthony Gooch 15:10, 5 October 2008 (EDT) (I agree with a few of you guys from each list. I think Isaac and Usutu's power should be called ARTISTIC PRECOGNITION and Angela's power be called something along the lines of "Future seeing" just with a one of these synonyms; Interpretive, Precognitive, Dreaming, Premonition...)
    • oh, and i agree for the split!

Inconsistency?

The page states that it is not clear whether the ability can see into the past, but it also lists Peter's dreams as an example of Precognitive dreaming. However, the dreams Peter had in How to Stop an Exploding Man were clearly of the past (eg - Charles was still alive). It seems that either we should conclude that the dreams can see into the past, or remove Peter's dreams from the list of examples (perhaps they are a different power...maybe the previous belief that they were really part of Charles'). Any thoughts? Stevehim 08:34, 8 October 2008 (EDT)

  • I just noticed that the HTSAEM dreams were brought up already and tabled due to us not knowing whether or not Charles had an ability. Even so, something needs to be altered, as we have a statement in the Limits section claiming it's unknown if the dreams can see the present/past, and a link in the Examples section to Peter's dreams, which clearly contain dreams about the past. Either the limit should be removed (or rewritten to state the ability can see the past) or Peter's dreams should be deleted from the Examples section. Stevehim 16:38, 10 October 2008 (EDT)
    • I'd be more in favour of clarifying the limits, the "examples" have (in my opinion) greater worth in terms of canon. --Matchu 16:44, 10 October 2008 (EDT)
      • I think it's fair to note that it's unclear whether or not he can dream the past. During the dream sequence with Charles, Peter stated that he didn't know if it was a dream or time travel. Like the dream sequence from Truth & Consequences, it is only listed in Peter's dream because we have to add it to some article, but these two "dreams" can possibly not be dreams.--Referos 18:37, 10 October 2008 (EDT)
        • I'm not sure there's any doubt it was a dream...that's how it's listed everywhere on the site. Also, Peter was unconscious, so I don't see how it can be time travel. And then there's that the ability is listed as being able to 'see the future through dreams,' which is also inconsistent with the Limits statement (since it specifies future). Stevehim 19:28, 10 October 2008 (EDT)
          • I actually just noticed that I removed it when I was adding the possibility in the following paragraph, which I didn't mean to do at the time. However, even if we say it's unknown whether the ability allows one to see the past or present, it really shouldn't be stated in the limits section, since it's A. speculative and B. inherrent in the definition of the ability. Stevehim 19:33, 10 October 2008 (EDT)

Matt?

  • Should we classify Matt as having this ability? He sees the future, and Usutu says he was asleep... At the very least he should have some sort of dream page, I would think. Stevehim 17:06, 9 October 2008 (EDT)
    • I think he only proves that Precognition needs to be made into one page. His eyes went white, but he didn't paint. It was both worlds.--Riddler 17:16, 9 October 2008 (EDT)
      • I'm fine with it being one super-page; though I'd agree Matt's is more "precognitive dreaming" than anything else. --Matchu 16:40, 10 October 2008 (EDT)
        • I'm not sure we can classify Matt as having this ability any more than we can classify Nathan as having regeneration. Adam inserted his blood into Nathan, and that's what healed him from the explosion that occurred at the end of S1, but it was temporary. We don't know whether Matt will still be able to see the future, but that said it seems to me that it was more like Isaac's/Usutu's ability (which is realistic viewing) than Angela's (which is symbolic viewing).--MiamiVolts (talk) 02:29, 11 October 2008 (EDT)
          • The dreams are not necessarily always symbolic (Peter's vision of Nathan's accident was quite accurate). Even if we don't consider that Matt obtained this ability, there's still the problem that Usutu, who can paint the future, induced the ability to dream the future, which makes a very good point about combining the two powers.--Referos 09:48, 11 October 2008 (EDT)
            • Excellent point, in fact. Stevehim 10:10, 11 October 2008 (EDT)
              • Except we have never seen Angela's dreams be anything other than symbolic. We had been assuming Peter's visions were from Angela's ability, but they could be a combination of both Isaac's and Angela's abilities. The only way to be sure which is which is to limit the examples to just Angela's and just Isaac's; we haven't seen yet how Usutu himself sees things.--MiamiVolts (talk) 12:37, 11 October 2008 (EDT)
                • Except Peter had never met Isaac when he dreamt about Nathan's accident. And I don't understand your comment about Usutu; what do you mean by "how Usutu sees"?--Referos 12:58, 11 October 2008 (EDT)
                • In fairness, haven't we only seen one of Angela's dreams? --Matchu 12:50, 11 October 2008 (EDT)
                  • How do we know that her dream was symbolic and not literal? It could be a future (rift) that won't come to be due to the changes made by Future Peter (and is how it's currently listed). Stevehim 13:05, 11 October 2008 (EDT)
                    1. Peter could have passed by Isaac at any time before he knew him; his ability could also have originally come from someone else with precognition.
                    2. Usutu has to be seeing the future in some way in order to paint it... we haven't seen whether that was just still symbolic images or a realistic time-moving future like Matt saw (though I'll assume it is the latter since the ability is supposed to be like Isaac's).
                    3. Symbolic means that it is representative of something and not necessarily exactly how it is... for example, Claire was in her cheerleading outfit in both Angela's and Peter's dream cause that is how both characters perceived her (as the cheerleader); Matt was in a policeman outfit in one of Peter's dreams cause he saw him as the cop. Claude was in one of Peter's dreams laughing while Peter was about to explode, but that didn't happen exactly--but it was symbolic of them meeting each other.--MiamiVolts (talk) 13:23, 11 October 2008 (EDT)
                    • The paintings don't always happen exactly either, albeit a slightly different scenario is attached. Either way, the difference between these abilities is very, very thin at this point, and the merge is almost very necessary, imho. To assume that it was a combination of abilities though for the article is bad though.--Riddler 13:53, 11 October 2008 (EDT)
                      • Agreed. On a side note, I'm not even sure they even really need to actually paint it, as we've seen that they see the image on canvas. I think the painting just makes it clearer/more permanent, but I would thik that pre-Shanti virus Sylar could just use Charlie's ability to see what he saw on the canvas and bypass that (though that's speculative). Anyway, this actually ties in with a question I was going to pose...are we considering her dream an actual future (rift)? That's how it's currently listed on the Exposed Future page, but the problem is that all of the links are to the present day characters. However, re-linking them to exposed future characters becomes confusing, as they're mostly associated with the 'four years ahead' scenes. It's an inconsistency, but a minor one, and so maybe it's better to just leave it as it is and accept it's not entirely accurate (another possibility would be to create a whole new set of character pages for each rift, but I would say that's a bad idea unless we get much more detail in future episodes). Any thoughts? Stevehim 17:05, 11 October 2008 (EDT)

Matt? (Part 2)

Angela's dreams are symbolic, so I wouldn't consider them an actual future reality. However, Isaac's, Matt's and Usutu's visions were realistic depictions of potential futures. Isaac saw the explosion future, Usutu and Matt are seeing the exposed future. I think Riddler is right that the painting is not required for Usutu's/Isaac's visions, but there is another difference/reason for maintaining the split: the Angela's dreams don't let the person interact with the environment while experiencing them, but Isaac's and Usutu's visions do. Also, the paintings were not always exactly accurate cause Isaac didn't remember them well enough to paint them correctly, also there were cases where once having seen the paintings (such as the explosion), the outcome may be altered.--MiamiVolts (talk) 22:33, 11 October 2008 (EDT)

  • The dreams can be realistic too. Peter dreamed of Nathan's accident, didn't he? That, and Angela stated she knew Future Peter was coming, that she dreamed (dreamt?) it. Though we didn't see those, we're to believe them. And who's to say the dreams are all only symbolic? Angela's dream hasn't happened yet, so it can happen as it was seen, happen with slight differences, not happen at all... no one can say. The point though is that both of these abilities see a future, symbolic or not. Precognition is to see the future. To shrink the line between the two further, Usutu (extending his power to Matt or not) told Matt that he was dreaming, when we clearly saw his eyes were white. He didn't paint the future, but did see it, and did remember it.--Riddler 22:40, 11 October 2008 (EDT)
    • As stated above, because Peter can use more than one ability at once, his dreams could be supplemented by Isaac's or someone else's vision ability and thus not be just symbolic like Angela's--thus, Peter is not a good example of the dream ability. As for what Usutu said to Matt, I guess we could say that Isaac's and Usutu's visions are daydreams, but they are in control of their current-time bodies while seeing the future. Angela can't do that with her dreams. If we do combine the ability pages, which I'm against doing, then that should be noted.--MiamiVolts (talk) 22:59, 11 October 2008 (EDT)
        1. On what are you basing your statement that Angela's dream is symbolic and not an actual prediction of the future?
        2. If that's true, then stuff should be changed (eg - the definition of Precognitive should be altered and Angela's dream should either be completely removed from the exposed futures page or noted that it is symbolic of a possible future and not an actual prediction).
        3. As for the interaction with the environment...how are they really interacting? Beyond the fulfilling of the precognition they can't do anything. None of them answer direct questions posed to them, and we have evidence that they cannot be impeded in their work (iirc, Caitlin stated/implied that Peter 'could not be stopped' or something like that). I don't consider moving limbs and the such 'interacting with the environment,' as a person who is asleep does that as well. And I don't think they're really 'in control' of their bodies, unless there's an example of them being able to cease painting/drawing prior to finishing that I'm forgetting about. And then there's the whole Piper's glasses thing and Matt v Nathan that cast doubt on it further. Stevehim 23:18, 11 October 2008 (EDT)
          1. I'm describing it as such on the basis of how people appear in her dream. She saw flashes of almost-static scenes, and the people in them just appear before her as if they've teleported there. Also, the people are dressed symbolically--Claire being in her cheerleader outfit is the most obvious, as that must still be how Angela thinks of her; there's no reason for her to dress that way again. However, her dream was a prediction of the future, nonetheless. It told Angela that these people would come against her, and Sylar would be the only one left on her side.
          2. See #1 as to why I think those changes aren't necessary.
          3. They're painting... it takes conscious thought to choose which colors you want to use irl to paint what you are seeing in the vision. Painting while having a vision/daydream is not a natural occurrence as you have to consciously match color to color; they are at least semi-aware of their surroundings, similar to how a person who is under the influence of Ambian can be half asleep, get dressed, hop in their car and drive somewhere (the point is that they are only half asleep). As to Piper, she was influenced by dream manipulation and that's a whole different ballgame. And I don't understand what you mean regarding Matt vs. Nathan.--MiamiVolts (talk) 00:07, 12 October 2008 (EDT)
          • The way it was presented to me, it looked like Matt did the painting and he had Precog, not this ability. --SacValleyDweller (talk) 23:56, 11 October 2008 (EDT)
              1. I agree that those reasons support the idea that it is symbolic (and I'm not even saying I think it wasn't..I actually think that one probably was), but that's hardly conclusive. To say that precognitive dreaming is symbolic based on Claire wearing a cheerleader outfit (which she did to fool her moms in an episode this year already), and because the scenes were static is pretty speculative.
              2. I'd call it more of a trance. They don't exactly choose colors, since they're just matching what they see. It's similar to sleepwalking...and I don't think it's been concluded that sleepwalkers are awake, so it may be possible to mimic the interactions you mentioned while asleep.
              3. The Matt v Nathan was another ballpark too...I was referring their fight during Maury's 'nightmare.' It's not really clear what exactly is going on whith that power, as Nathan and Matt appear to be in a sor tof waking dream during their fight, while Matt appears to be asleep when he saves Molly (and Maury is either asleep or in a temporary coma when Matt traps him). I was just trying to bring all of the instances of sleep, semi-sleep, into the discussion for analysis.  ;) Stevehim 00:26, 12 October 2008 (EDT)
                1. I think we agree to disagree on this point.
                2. Yes, I still think that is being semi-awake: I'll buy that it's kind of like a hypnotic trance, or even slightly similar to sleepwalking, but similar more to the variety of sleepwalkers that are aware enough to make their way to their kitchens, open their refrigerators and fix themselves something to eat. Heh, what I was getting at is that there is a sense of awareness and capability to do things there that is not present in Angela's dream.--MiamiVolts (talk) 00:45, 12 October 2008 (EDT)
                • Just to note, we have seen the following forms of precognition:
                  1. The character produces a painting or sketch that shows the future without entering a trance, and he or she doesn't realize it's a prophetic painting.
                  2. The character's white eyes turn white, and enters a trance that can't be stopped. After he or she finishes the painting and exits the trance, he or she doesn't remember painting it.
                  3. The character has visions of the future.
                  4. The character is simply aware of the future.
Isaac demonstrated 1 and 2. Sylar demonstrated 2 and 3 (when he had flashes of the future and the past in season one). Peter demonstrated 1, 2 and 3. Angela only 3, Usutu only 2. A Brazilian teenager from Chandra's journal demonstrated 4.
Now: According to canon sources, Isaac's power is "precognition", and he paints. Sylar took his power, but he has painted and also had visions. Usutu also can paint the future (which means he also has precognition), but he made Matt dream the future. And, the brazilian teenager, who has a form of presentiment (being aware of the future) also has, according to canon sources, "precognition". Thus, everything should be combined under "precognition".--Referos 12:48, 12 October 2008 (EDT)

Arthur Petrelli Precog??

  • Hi there, someone added Arthur Petrelli to the list of who have these powers. How do we know this, i haven't seen any evidence that he actually has this ability.
    • Until he's actually seen using the power, he shouldn't be on the power description page or have it listed as "known to be absorbed". It can, however, be listed under notes in either page. --Ted C 16:54, 29 October 2008 (EDT)

Make mommy proud

I don't know about you guys, but that whole scenario seemed INTENSELY out of character for Angela. Not to mention Arthur later QUOTED the very dream Sylar had, leading me to believe it was Maury speaking to him, not Angela. Thoughts? Ricard Desi 15:47, 29 October 2008 (EDT)

  • I agree, it could have been Maury who influenced Sylar's dream. We don't know either way. Care to ask that question on Behind the Eclipse for us? Just e-mail the question to heroes at comicbookresources.com, with "Behind the Eclipse Question" in the subject, and a writer may answer it in next week's issue. I've already sent in my questions for this week.--MiamiVolts (talk) 15:52, 29 October 2008 (EDT)
    • Sent. We'll see if it gets any response. Ricard Desi 16:19, 30 October 2008 (EDT)
      • It was Angela, it showed her first and the brain monitor. Which part did Arthur quote to Sylar? When he said, she told you to save her favorite son? I think he just guessed that - as he even got that wrong, she called Sylar her favorite son. The other part about him being a hero was from "One of Us, One of Them". --Powermimic 21:55, 3 November 2008 (EST)
  • I think it was Sylar, in the end. Angela made comments about Sylar not knowing his own powers. He asks what she means and she uses her being in his dream as an example. --FlamingTomDude 12:41, 5 November 2008 (EDT)

astral projection

it seems a bit like that, taking a out-of-body experience when she speaks to sylar. but i guess we have to wait. --Manwithnoname 17:25, 2 November 2008 (EST)

  • It would also explain how Peter saw and spoke to Charles after he died. I think this "dreaming power" also includes astral projection. --Powermimic 21:50, 3 November 2008 (EST)
    • It seems to me that people with this abiity can participate in the dream, like Arthur was able to touch and do stuff to Angela even though she was just dreaming it. Also when Peter was dreaming his explosion he woke up screaming, more than he would if it was just a regular nightmare.--Sylarversion2 07:40, 5 November 2008 (EST)
      • In the latest Behind the Eclipse they confirmed that this was the ability that Peter used to see Charles in "How to stop an Exploding Man". So it seems that they have Astral projection as well? Maybe we should call this "Enhanced Dreaming"? --Powermimic 03:53, 11 November 2008 (EST)
        • I agree. Look at the theories for Precognitive dreaming page and scroll to the very bottom. I looked up about some stuff about astral projection and, though I like enhanced dreaming, it pretty much sums it all up. Titan3510 11:31, 7 December 2008 (EST)
          • Nobody confirmed that Peter and Angela have a power called "astral projection", which, as I understand it, is an out-of-body experience. What writers Joe Pokaski and Aron Coleite confirmed was that it was through the use of Angela's powers that Angela entered Sylar's dreams and has premonitions of the future; this same power is what Peter used to visit Charles in the past. If we want to talk about a name change, that's one thing...but I want to point out that the writers never called or even confirmed Angela's powers as "astral projection". In fact, they chose the words "Angela's powers", didn't they? As well, they didn't say or confirm anything about anybody having an out-of-body experience. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 16:04, 7 December 2008 (EST)
        • There's always the possibility that this power is the same as Sanjog's. If the only aspect of it is seeing the future, then Angela in Sylar's dream either was just a dream on Sylar's part or Angela's dream of the future. Sanjog can show people events of the past that he wasn't present to witness, so maybe the ability allows for the viewing of future events as well. --FlamingTomDude 22:33, 10 December 2008 (EST)

Hiro/Matt's spirit walking revisited

I checked the discussions on both this and the precognition page, and while it was addressed at one point, I don't think it was revisited with new information. While the points made about the similarity to precognition (white eyes, literal vs symbolic) still apply, didn't Arthur specifically say to Hiro "You've been dreaming about me?" I could be wrong, but I think those were his words. If so, isn't that canonical confirmation that the spirit walk stuff belongs on this page, and not on precognition? --Stevehim 18:32, 30 December 2008 (EST)

  • I think the white eyes and the fact that a precog coaxed Matt and Hiro into that trance is stronger canonical evidence than Arthur's ambiguously chosen word "dreaming" (and ambiguously obtained information). -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 21:04, 30 December 2008 (EST)
    • Why is it ambiguous? And what about the fact that neither one painted or drew anything, but instead entered a dream-like state where the saw the future? Every instance of Issac, Peter, Future Gabriel, Arthur or Usutu's precognition is either done through painting or drawing it (or seeing it on a canvas). The same applies to Sylar except for a lone instance in which we see flashes in his eyes (right after he gets the power) which could easily be an effect (and it's been argued that it was in another instance...namely to explain his 'seeing the past' in his season 1 "death" scene). A person's eyes going white isn't really that much evidence, especially when, iirc, we never saw Angela's eyes (which were closed) or Peter's when they were dreaming (though I may be mistaken about that). Even if I am mistaken, isn't that just another way to access it, similar to the Niki/Knox argument? Personally, I think this is more evidence that the pages should be combined, but that's a bit more of a major issue. However, the preponderance of evidence seems to be (to me) that precognition involves painting or drawing whereas precognitive dreaming involves dreaming. It's speculative to say that Matt and Hiro have the power with a different way to access it simply based on their eyes going white and Usutu being the one who showed them how to do it, especially when both Usutu and Arthur have specifically called the power 'dreaming.' --Stevehim 21:28, 30 December 2008 (EST)
      • When Isaac paints the confrontation of Claire and Sylar on the steps at Union Wells, Isaac sees himself standing on the rooftop before he begins painting. Thus, painting is not the end-all of which power it is. In addition, this show goes well out of their way to have distinctive sound and visual cues to powers. Precognition's cue is white eyes, as seen on Peter, Sylar, Isaac, Usutu, and Arthur (and indeed also Matt and Hiro). In several instances we see Angela and Peter immediately after a dream, and they have normal eyes (the cue for that is apparently usually zooming into the eye and back out, exiting the dream. --Ricard Desi (t,c) 01:24, 31 December 2008 (EST)
        • I'm not sure what you mean by Isaac 'seeing himself on the rooftop,' but I will go back and look at the episode when I can. However, according to a note on precognition page, it seems that the white eyes can indicate precognitive dreaming as well (assuming glazed over = whitening). On that same page, it refers to Matt and Hiro's use of the power as prophetic dream states. The pages really should combined, as it's the same power, accessed in different ways (at least as much as Niki and Knox's powers are the same anyway  ;)). --Stevehim 10:41, 31 December 2008 (EST)
          • I'm getting confused about these two powers. Originally, I thought it would be best to merge painting with dreaming. However, it was confirmed that Angela used her power to talk with Sylar in his dreams, making this ability completely distinct from Usutu's. I suppose we should keep precognition and rename Angela's ability to something that encompasses both the premonitions and the dream appearance, since precognitive dreaming is no longer an appropriate name. But what do we do with the spirit walk?

If we want to make a separate page for this whole spirit walk business, I have one that's almost ready. Just polish off the summary for Episode:Villains and you can go ahead and move it. --SacValleyDweller (talk) 01:40, 31 December 2008 (EST)

How Precognitive Dreaming Works

I think this is how her ability works: - She must be unconscious for it to work (as seen by Peter and herself always being so, when they have prophetic dreams); the further in the future the event is, the more abstract and vague the dream is (as seen when Peter dreamed of the explosion, what actually happened was different to what he saw and also in the case of Angela dreaming of the massacre at Pinehearst, none of the good heroes actually died and three of the bad guys shown were killed in real life and also those bad guys never attacked anyone at Pinehearst, it was only Sylar who attacked everyone. These vague dreams are compared with Angela's later dream in Season 4 when she dreams of her driver being drugged and taken out of the car and herself being abducted by Danko's agents. This dream happened exactly like she foresaw it - albeit she managed to escape. This happened only seconds after she dreamed it, thus supporting my hypothesis of her dreams being more vague and symbolic when they depict events event far in the future.)

  • Feel free to comment. :D

--The_Seer 7:18, 28 March 2009 (EST)

  • Well the reason that her dream of Pinehearst is different is because Peter changed the future. These dreams are apparently not always accurate due to changes made as shown by her Pinehearst dream and her cab dream. Also in one episode Peter apparently used this ability to revisit the future, but he was still awake and came back with a flyer from the future that he didn't have before. Also unexplained is how Charles saw him when he had that dream where he visited the past.--WarGrowlmon18 20:52, 29 March 2009 (EDT)

Aspects of Precognitive Dreaming

I strongly think that "Precognitive Dreaming" provides more than just seeing the future (Precognition). This ability also provides Postcognition/Postcognitive Dreaming (seeing the past, similar to Clairsentience), Astral Perception (connecting one's mind with another person's mind) and Probability (seeing different paths and choosing the right one, similar to Accelerated Probability).

  • Examples of Astral Perception:
  • When Angela reaches to Sylar, in the part that she was in a coma and he was drugged by Peter. In that moment, Angela was mentally connecting with Sylar to "make momma proud". (Eris Quod Sum)
  • When Sylar mentally connected with Danko in his car. (Not yet confirmed, Into Asylum)
  • Example of Postcognition:
  • Example of Probability:
  • When Angela saw her driver being taken out of the car and she appeared to react as if she was looking for paths to take in the current situation to get out of the car. (Cold Snap)

What do you guys think of this, free to comment! -- DARK 00:08, 31 March 2009 (EDT)

  • Nice. I really wish they'd explain that whole thing with Charles. I don't think Sylar connected with Danko like that as he wasn't asleep and he doesn't have this power.--WarGrowlmon18 00:11, 31 March 2009 (EDT)
  • Who knows if he empathically absorbed this ability (off-screen) like he absorbed Elle's ability. Remember he was very emotional with Angela after hearing that she was his "real" mother. -- DARK 00:19, 31 March 2009 (EDT)
  • Is it just me or did they throw us a curve ball on Sylar's ability. I mean if Angela was Sylar's mother than it might have made sense. But since that was a whole lie how could Sylar absorb Elle's ability the way he did, it seems contradictory. Unless Intuitive Aptitude can be used like empathic mimicry in the sense that you don't need to look at someone's brain but more or less do something similar to what Monica does. --Dman dustin 00:38, 31 March 2009 (EDT)

Sylar Absorbed Precog Dreaming?


Name Change

  • In 1961 Chandra's file on Angela list her suspected ability as "Clairvoyance". Should we change this page and Molly's now because of this? User:Samstorey 15 April, 22:56

http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=aawu1f&s=5

    • Nice catch. Yeah, I think we should move this page to clairvoyance and rename Molly's ability. Clairvoyance in the Genesis Files may or may not have referred to her ability anyway, even though it was the closest we had. But now, Angela's ability is explicitly listed as clairvoyance and Molly's hasn't yet. But I'm at a loss to what to rename it to. -Sincerely, Thrashmeister » talk- 19:05, 15 April 2009 (EDT)
      • That may have just been what Chandra thought it was.--WarGrowlmon18 19:14, 15 April 2009 (EDT)
        • I would like to point out it says suspected abilities (plural) so there was a list of what Chandra thought she had. --posted by Laughingdevilboy

Talk 19:24, 15 April 2009 (EDT)

          • Didnt chandra also think that alice had no abilities. Gabriel Bishop 19:28, 15 April 2009 (EDT)
            • I have another print screen, this one has two other "suspected abilities".

http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=16aphlh&s=5 User:Samstorey 16 April, 21:56

              • That just proves he did not know what her power was. But good catch though! --posted by Laughingdevilboy

Talk 18:37, 16 April 2009 (EDT)

  • There is definitely more to Angela's ability than "Precognitive dreaming", but so far they're all "dreaming". So maybe a better name to describe all aspects is "Psychic Dreaming"? --Powermimic 22:40, 18 April 2009 (EDT)
    • 'Astral projection' would explain how she was able to enter Sylar's mind/dream and how Peter went to the past to talk with Charles... --Peter

Clairvoyant dreaming is another possibility. I'm just putting that out there... Super-Hiro

  • I think we should leave the page as is, but mention the other names somewhere, like the 6 or 7 we have regeneration. --Laudo 10:24, 22 April 2009 (EDT)

I'm sure I read somewhere, or was said on the show that abilities manifest in different ways depending on the person in question. Would this not just make this precognition, but then stated underneath that this is shown to Angela in dreams, rather than paintings? Just didnt see why one was just vaguely called precognition when this is precognition also. Either both should have the method used on or should be merged into one article. --345tom 15:29, 22 April 2009 (EDT)

  • I agree. Why is it called precognition and not artistic precognition? Either we change that ability's name or merge the articles. This could also apply to tom and trevor's abilties. Both seem to shatter or destroy objects but since they are done in different methods theyre different abilities. --Peter

Memorable Quotes

Just wondering if anyone else thinks this should be on memorable quotes for precognitive dreaming, I for one think it is a great line and definitly memorable. AJ


"Don't you see the benefits your abilities could have for the world?"

"I only see my nightmares."

- Chandra, Angela


I don't oppose it. Intuitive Empath - Talk - Contributions 16:03, 2 July 2009 (EDT)

O.K then does anyone mind if I add it? - Agent Jordan

I think thats a great quote. Dont mind at all.--Catalyst · Talk · HL 01:39, 7 July 2009 (EDT)

a bit we need to change

just now part of the page reads "Angela states that in order for her to have precognitive dreams, she must fall asleep naturally, rather than inducing it with pills" but angela says it needs to be natural, then "at least the ones that matter". does this not mean that she does have dreams but they're just not about important events. --mc_hammark 14:34, 4 September 2009 (EDT)

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